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Thread: Why are CSMs so expensive?

  1. #1


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    Why are CSMs so expensive?

    This is something I'm curious about. I've read that casinos lease, rather than buy, CSMs. Companies selling them are all POA, but I found one site selling used ones for $10,000. It seems like they shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars to make, so why do they cost so much? Is it economies of scale with such a niche product?

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug64 View Post
    This is something I'm curious about. I've read that casinos lease, rather than buy, CSMs. Companies selling them are all POA, but I found one site selling used ones for $10,000. It seems like they shouldn't cost more than a few hundred dollars to make, so why do they cost so much? Is it economies of scale with such a niche product?
    Most likely: rent-seeking.

    If I remember correctly, there is a near-total monopoly on the shuffler market and the owner of the IP (in this case, the shuffler itself) can do/charge as they please.

    Naturally, casino managers are willing to pay/waste beau-coup bucks to make a few extra cents at their tables rather than train their staff to perform better shuffling, whatever that may be.

  3. #3


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    That makes sense, but it seems like casinos could make a lot more money over time from more hands per hour if they don't have to spend time shuffling.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug64 View Post
    but I found one site selling used ones for $10,000
    Think about what it might be worth to an AP to know exactly how the machine works.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Think about what it might be worth to an AP to know exactly how the machine works.
    That thought hadn't occurred to me. Now there's an idea...

  6. #6


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    It comes down to rent and maintenance. Rent is expensive, but you also have to deal with fixing them. As well, the time and energy it takes to change them out, fix malfunctions, and get a tech out to work on them. If you have a large tribal casino with 30-40 tables, id think it could be just another expensive head ache to deal with. (no pun intended).

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug64 View Post
    That thought hadn't occurred to me. Now there's an idea...
    Do not cheer too early, as there are different models, different software versions, etc.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Think about what it might be worth to an AP to know exactly how the machine works.
    It would be worth absolutely nothing.

  9. #9
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    CVData has code to sim them by special license and I know someone who had a magnificent run over a couple years. BUT, they have changed the operation since and the code is no longer useful. Doesn't mean that they are unbeatable. Two things to keep in mind. A game that casinos think is not beatable (and this also applies to 6:5) means low radar. Secondly, there are countries that cannot ban your play or spread based solely on the fact you win. This has been tested in courts.

    Having said that, I can't blame CBJN for dropping 6:5 as they need reporters and few reporters have any interest in such.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    It would be worth absolutely nothing.
    Perhaps not anymore. I don't know. As has been pointed out, the machines and the software evolve over time. I will say that I once had access to someone who had a one2six and that the software model I wrote did show that it was beatable in a surprising way.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    the software model I wrote did show that it was beatable in a surprising way.
    Are you willing to elaborate on that?

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    <snip>I will say that I once had access to someone who had a one2six and that the software model I wrote did show that it was beatable in a surprising way.
    Telekinesis? ;-)

    Dog Hand

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug64 View Post
    Are you willing to elaborate on that?
    Sorry, but no. I have an active NDA with the player I was working with. I will say that the gains were smaller than traditional counting of shoe games.

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