See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 42

Thread: How many cards are used each hand by average when playing Spanish 21?

  1. #1
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    How many cards are used each hand by average when playing Spanish 21?

    In Blackjack, the average number of cards used in each hand when in playing is about 2.7, but it seems this number should be greater than 3 in Spanish 21. How many cards are actually used each hand by average when playing Spanish 21? How to calculate this?

  2. #2
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The mote in God's eye
    Posts
    12,461
    Blog Entries
    59


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    A question I haven't heard before. Depends on rules, strategy, number of players, and if you are averaging in dealer hands. Generally, around 2.87. That's dealer and player hand average heads-up. It must be simulated.
    Last edited by Norm; 07-15-2021 at 06:39 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  3. #3
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    A question I haven't heard before. Depends on rules and strategy. Generally, around 2.87. It must be simulated.
    This is cool. Can you also simulate these questions?
    In Blackjack, if the dealer does not bust, the average hand she will make is about 18.3 for Stand-17 games or 18.4 for Hit-17 games.
    In Spanish 21, what are these numbers?

  4. #4
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The mote in God's eye
    Posts
    12,461
    Blog Entries
    59


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Yes, I can.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #5
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    A question I haven't heard before. Depends on rules, strategy, number of players, and if you are averaging in dealer hands. Generally, around 2.87. That's dealer and player hand average heads-up. It must be simulated.
    Actually, if we separately consider the average numbers of cards in the dealer hand and the player hand, what are the averages?

  6. #6


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    2.7 in Blackjack and 2.9 in Spanish 21.

    For 8D, H17 Spanish 21 the frequency of drawing hands is 73% for two cards, 21.9% for three cards, 4.3% for four cards, 0.7% for five cards and 0.1% for six or more cards. Note that these figures do not include two card hands that you stand with. If they were included the two card percentage would be higher and the rest lower.
    Casino Enemy No.1

  7. #7
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by davethebuilder View Post
    2.7 in Blackjack and 2.9 in Spanish 21.

    For 8D, H17 Spanish 21 the frequency of drawing hands is 73% for two cards, 21.9% for three cards, 4.3% for four cards, 0.7% for five cards and 0.1% for six or more cards. Note that these figures do not include two card hands that you stand with. If they were included the two card percentage would be higher and the rest lower.
    This is even more specific, but it seems you are talking about the player’s hands, not the dealer’s hand? Do dealers need more cards to complete their hands, or players?
    On another note, I calculated the average dealer hand value for Spanish 21 using an infinite deck model and found it is slightly smaller (4th decimal place) than that of Blackjack, but the bust rate in Spanish 21 is a lot smaller. Can you also help confirm these numbers.

  8. #8


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I have just simulated a spanish 21 game recently.

    RULES : CSM-6D(spanish deck)-H17-D9-DAS-RS3-RSA2-BJAUTOWIN-21AUTOWIN-DDR-OBBO-Late Surrender-MULTICARD 21 or 678 or 777-AUTOWIN BONUS-1.5-2.0-3.0, No Multicard Double Down, No Redoubling.


    1) DDR - Means DOUBLE DOWN RESCUE, after double down, if player thinks it is not a good hand, player can surrender and net loss 1 units.


    2) Multicard21 ---- 5 cards 21, 6 cards 21 and 7(or more)cards 21, will get autowin 1.5 units, 2 units and 3 units respectively.


    3) Non suited 678 or 777, suited 678 or 777(other than SPADE) and SPADE 678 or 777, will be autowin 1.5 units, 2 units and 3 units respectively.


    4) 2 cards 21(split Ace and hit T, not PONTOON but 21 points), 3 cards 21 and 4 cards 21 will be autowin 1 units.


    5) OBBO rules - No hole card, when dealer have PONTOON, player will lose original bet(1 unit) of each un-busted hands(inclusive of split hands) + lose all busted hands.

    *Autowin - Player will get paid immediately(before dealer reveal her hole card) regardless of dealer's final total.



    Dealer average cards/hand = 2.82
    Player average cards/hand = 2.95

    Below is my proposed Basic Strategy:-

    S4 - STAND, except hit with 4 or more cards
    S5 - STAND, except hit with 5 or more cards
    S6 - STAND, except hit with 6 or more cards
    P77 - SPLIT, except HIT if suited 7,7 vs any 7(Hope to get special bonus, 1 Pay 200)

    PINK cell - HIT if any 678 is possible
    ORANGE cell - HIT if any suited 678 is possible
    GREY cell - HIT if any SPADE 678 is possible

    Double Down Rescue : 12-16 vs 8-A, 17 vs A

    SP BS.jpg

    Norm, may be you can verify my results ? The simulated house edge is = - 0.54%
    Last edited by James989; 07-18-2021 at 08:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by James989 View Post

    Dealer average cards/hand = 2.82
    Player average cards/hand = 2.95



    SP BS.jpg

    Norm, may be you can verify my results ? The simulated house edge is = - 0.54%
    This is great, but my Spanish 21 is different. They are 8-Spanish-deck shoes, Stand-17, DAS, RS3, RSA3, Hit-Split Aces, BJautowin1.5, non-BJ21auwin1.0, DDR, Dealer peek for BJ, Late Surrender, MULTICARD 21 or 678 or 777-AUTOWIN BONUS-1.5-2.0-3.0, DD any number of cards, No Redoubling.

    To beat this game, I have done some rough analysis to break down different EV contributions.
    Blackjack EV (8-deck Stand-17): -0.36%
    Removal of 4 Tens each deck: -2%
    Addition of player 21 always win 1.0+Player BJ always win 1.5: +1%
    Hit to split Aces+Split multiple Aces: +0.3%
    Double any number of cards: +0.2%

    But I don’t know how to calculate these two EV contributions:
    MULTICARD 21 or 678 or 777-AUTOWIN BONUS: ???
    Double down rescue: ???

    Any idea?

  10. #10


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by aceside View Post
    This is great, but my Spanish 21 is different. They are 8-Spanish-deck shoes, Stand-17, DAS, RS3, RSA3, Hit-Split Aces, BJautowin1.5, non-BJ21auwin1.0, DDR, Dealer peek for BJ, Late Surrender, MULTICARD 21 or 678 or 777-AUTOWIN BONUS-1.5-2.0-3.0, DD any number of cards, No Redoubling.

    To beat this game, I have done some rough analysis to break down different EV contributions.
    Blackjack EV (8-deck Stand-17): -0.36%
    Removal of 4 Tens each deck: -2%
    Addition of player 21 always win 1.0+Player BJ always win 1.5: +1%
    Hit to split Aces+Split multiple Aces: +0.3%
    Double any number of cards: +0.2%

    But I don’t know how to calculate these two EV contributions:
    MULTICARD 21 or 678 or 777-AUTOWIN BONUS: ???
    Double down rescue: ???

    Any idea?
    I think it can be calculated through simulations.

    BTW, the PEEK rules is favor to the dealer, simply because player have lower chance to get autowin for MUTICARD 21, 678 and 777.

  11. #11


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Your strategy differs from the H17 strategy at

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/spanish-21/

    Especially the doubling strategy for soft hands. I see now that you listed D9 as part of the rules which would explain that part. I haven't looked in detail, but you might want to check a few of the other differences.

  12. #12


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Your strategy differs from the H17 strategy at

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/spanish-21/

    Especially the doubling strategy for soft hands. I see now that you listed D9 as part of the rules which would explain that part. I haven't looked in detail, but you might want to check a few of the other differences.
    Please note that there are other two differences between WIZARDOFODDS and my games rules :-

    1) ENHC vs OBBO
    2) Multi card double down vs No Multi card double down

  13. #13
    Banned or Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1,154


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by James989 View Post
    I think it can be calculated through simulations.

    BTW, the PEEK rules is favor to the dealer, simply because player have lower chance to get autowin for MUTICARD 21, 678 and 777.
    Are you sure about this: the dealer peek rule is favor to the dealer? In blackjack, the dealer peek is definitely favor to the player by about 0.2%. That is a lot. Spanish 21 bonus is so rare and I just think it does not have very much effect at all.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Average number of cards per hand
    By Bricklayer in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-17-2019, 08:06 AM
  2. What is the average number of hit cards per hand for a H17 game?
    By 21forme in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-03-2019, 11:39 PM
  3. Average number of cards per hand per count
    By Blackriver in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-12-2013, 01:57 PM
  4. dcbclimb: Average # cards per hand
    By dcbclimb in forum Blackjack Main
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-18-2008, 07:16 PM
  5. Brick Waller: Average cards per hand.
    By Brick Waller in forum Blackjack Main
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-18-2004, 08:10 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.