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Thread: MGP CA: DD S17 DAS LS - 16 vs 9

  1. #1


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    MGP CA: DD S17 DAS LS - 16 vs 9

    Using MGP's CA to generate the total dependent strategy for DD S17 DAS LS, I get the following which matches the basic strategy generated by the basic strategy engine at

    https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackj...rr=ls&peek=yes

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.jpg

    However, when I click on the cell for 16 vs 9 to see the EVs, the EV of surrender is clearly the best. Why does the strategy not recommend surrender for this hand?

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.withEV.jpg

    I ask because, when generating the strategy for this hand by simulation using my own software, I get similar EVs and so my software does recommend surrender for this hand.

    A similar situation exists for A,6 vs 2 where doubling has the best EV according to both MGP and my software, yet the strategy displayed by MGP is to hit.

    What am I missing?

  2. #2


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    Another question: Why does the 2 card strategy not show double and surrender? It only shows hit and stand.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Using MGP's CA to generate the total dependent strategy for DD S17 DAS LS, I get the following which matches the basic strategy generated by the basic strategy engine at

    https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackj...rr=ls&peek=yes

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.jpg

    However, when I click on the cell for 16 vs 9 to see the EVs, the EV of surrender is clearly the best. Why does the strategy not recommend surrender for this hand?

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.withEV.jpg

    I ask because, when generating the strategy for this hand by simulation using my own software, I get similar EVs and so my software does recommend surrender for this hand.

    A similar situation exists for A,6 vs 2 where doubling has the best EV according to both MGP and my software, yet the strategy displayed by MGP is to hit.

    What am I missing?
    I think there is no problem with this. The basic strategy is R/S, depending on the rule of if surrender is allowed or not.
    Last edited by aceside; 06-23-2021 at 02:38 AM.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Another question: Why does the 2 card strategy not show double and surrender? It only shows hit and stand.
    This just means that the TD strategy and the 2-card strategy are different. Everything is consistent.

  5. #5


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Aceside, please stay away from this, you have no clue what you're talking about.

    Gronbog, when I look at BJA3 Table B6 - 2 Deck S17 DAS, the hard 16 vs 9 also shows "Hit"

    Griffin "Number of Decks for Basic Strategy Surrender" (Elephant page 178) says to surrender 16 vs 9 with the followings:
    9-7 in 3 or more decks
    T-6 in 4 or more decks

    Also did it using MGP and got the same you did. Weird...

    Now, I went to bjstratnet and the computation gives -49.61% for 9-7 and -49.47% for 10-6 for hitting 16 vs 9, so the basic strategy over there also says to Hit.
    Remark that these last numbers are exactly in line with BJA3 Table A26

    In MGP if you go to the "Analysys" tab and look for the same 2 card hands, you will get the same results given by bjstrat (-49.61% and -49.47%)
    Last edited by G Man; 06-23-2021 at 06:26 AM.
    G Man

  6. #6


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    Thanks G Man. I can accept that the correct basic strategy is to hit both 16 vs 9 and A,6 vs 2 for this game. Multiple sources seem to confirm that. I would just like an explanation for why the EVs shown by the MGP CA for the TD strategy seem to contradict that, at least for these two hands.

    And also my second question: Why does the 2 card strategy not show double and hit?

  7. #7


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    I'm going to chalk this up to me just not understanding what MGP is displaying.

    With some offline input, I'm now guessing that the TD strategy includes all possible hands including multi-card hands. In that case, it's showing that the EV of hitting 16 vs 9 is worse than surrender when all of those hands are included and that it's just showing surrender in the detailed EVs as a reference, since you can't surrender multi-card hands in the configured game.

    But that still does not explain why, when I select the TD Hard/Soft tab and select 2-Card Strategy at the bottom, it doesn't show any doubles or surrenders. Doubles are shown only if I select the CD Soft/Pairs tab along with any of the strategies at the bottom, but that only gets me soft doubles.

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.TD-Hard-Soft.2-Card.jpg

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    I'm going to chalk this up to me just not understanding what MGP is displaying.

    With some offline input, I'm now guessing that the TD strategy includes all possible hands including multi-card hands. In that case, it's showing that the EV of hitting 16 vs 9 is worse than surrender when all of those hands are included and that it's just showing surrender in the detailed EVs as a reference, since you can't surrender multi-card hands in the configured game.

    But that still does not explain why, when I select the TD Hard/Soft tab and select 2-Card Strategy at the bottom, it doesn't show any doubles or surrenders. Doubles are shown only if I select the CD Soft/Pairs tab along with any of the strategies at the bottom, but that only gets me soft doubles.

    DD.S17.DAS.LS.TD-Hard-Soft.2-Card.jpg
    Just must be a quirk in the way he configures the charts. 2-card strategy means what the TOTAL is. CD specifies the individual cards that comprise the hand, so he uses that for all soft doubles.

    Don

  9. #9


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    I guess to obtain the TD doubling for soft hands, you should click on "Double any number of cards" (?)
    G Man

  10. #10


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    MGP can be contacted through this forum. I've chatted with him in the past about his CA nuances and he has been most helpful in helping me configure, analyse and understand the results of various situations that are not readily obvious or included in the Help file. Below is an extract that explains some his terminology which may be of some assistance.

    TD means exactly that. All hands are played solely based on their total and the upcard and the strategy is 0-
    card dependent. If a pair is not split, or is reached after split, it is played solely based on its total.


    2C strategies play the first 2 card hands based on their composition, and all 3 or more cards based solely on
    their total. The same strategy is used after splits – i.e. all two card post-split hands use their pre-split strategy
    and all 3 or more card hands are played based on their totals.


    CD strategy is composition dependent and each hand is played optimally based on all the cards played in the
    hand.
    Casino Enemy No.1

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