See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Card Counter's Advantage Tipping Point in Hypothetical Casino Cheating Scenario

  1. #1
    Member dalmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    96


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    Card Counter's Advantage Tipping Point in Hypothetical Casino Cheating Scenario

    I'm not sure if there has ever been a study completed on this but I believe it to be an appropriate question with practical relevance to card counters.

    Assuming a casino is cheating by removing aces or tens, at which cheating point (how many removals of high cards) on a SD, DD, 6D, and 8D game would the advantage a proficient card counter has vanish entirely and give the card counter a -EV game?

    Is there a combination of cards removed from the deck by a cheating casino that would still not completely nullify the card counter's advantage?

  2. #2
    Member dalmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    96


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Not to overstate the obvious, but a casino cannot remove too many cards because patrons would no doubt quickly observe.

    On pitch games removal of more than one ace or ten would probably be too risky. Does removal of just one ten or ace destroy the advantage?

    On shoe games removal of many more tens and aces would be required due to the increased number of decks than on a pitch game. Again, how many cards would be required to remove the advantage to a card counter? It seems from simply eyeballing it removal of 1 or 2 high cards on a shoe game would not destroy the advantage of a card counter, thought it would lower it appreciably........

  3. #3


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    There are ways the casino can cheat legally and it is not preferential shuffling or removing cards . Prism shoe( clear shoebox) is one , dealing seconds , there is ONE WAY OF CHEATING BY THE CASINO that you need to think about but i won't say it here.

  4. #4
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    The mote in God's eye
    Posts
    11,282
    Blog Entries
    59


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    I'm not sure if there has ever been a study completed
    Easy study to perform. Don't think it would be a great idea to publish it.
    "Croyez ceux qui cherchent la vérité, doutez de ceux qui la trouvent." --André Gide

  5. #5


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    I'm not sure if there has ever been a study completed on this but I believe it to be an appropriate question with practical relevance to card counters.

    Assuming a casino is cheating by removing aces or tens, at which cheating point (how many removals of high cards) on a SD, DD, 6D, and 8D game would the advantage a proficient card counter has vanish entirely and give the card counter a -EV game?

    Is there a combination of cards removed from the deck by a cheating casino that would still not completely nullify the card counter's advantage?
    This is very easy to find out. If the HiLo true count is -2 and below, most counters would probably be discouraged, meaning a removal of two tens per deck. However, what I noticed is that the main problem of casino cheating is on hand shuffled shoes, not on ASMs. ASMs cannot cheat because they can indicate which card is missing on their screens. For hand shuffled shoes, many experienced dealer may intentionally collect big cards together and do not shuffle them, causing players to lose.

  6. #6


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    a casino cannot remove too many cards because patrons would no doubt quickly observe.
    Sure they can. In an 8D shoe game, who is going to notice? And it's not simply removing Ts and As; it's replacing them with 5s and 6s.

    I've been on several cruises where this was done. It's a simple matter to count down a number of shoes and when they all end significantly positive, the conclusion is obvious.

    Beating a game like this would be like beating 6:5 BJ by counting. Simply not worth it.

  7. #7


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    OP implies he’s willing to play a reduced EV provided he knows the maximum extent of the cheat. Notwithstanding reduced EV, increased variance, who’s to say the house is not employing more than 1 cheating scheme in the same shoe. That being said, who’s to say OP or anyone can adjust betting strategy on the fly.

    That last comment does not mean to conflict with adjusting ramps on the fly depending on cut on honest shoes.

  8. #8


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Easy study to perform. Don't think it would be a great idea to publish it.
    if easy to perform, perhaps selected distribution.

  9. #9


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Sure they can. In an 8D shoe game, who is going to notice? And it's not simply removing Ts and As; it's replacing them with 5s and 6s.

    I've been on several cruises where this was done. It's a simple matter to count down a number of shoes and when they all end significantly positive, the conclusion is obvious.

    Beating a game like this would be like beating 6:5 BJ by counting. Simply not worth it.
    Agreed. I suspected 1 store of cheating. I decided to compile data for gaming. I can’t reveal to much, except to say the otherwise so called honest game (they are also employing a deviation not authorized by gaming which doubles house edge on a particular side bet) requires a certain level of approval. That level of approval not being there on my last sojourn, allowed me to rack up a pretty decent win, curtailed by typical countermeasures ordered by the head sniveler on site.

    The inference being that the exercise must be authorized, at certain betting levels and above, and for certain known individuals only.

  10. #10


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    if easy to perform, perhaps selected distribution.
    Is "selected distribution" your word to avoid saying "clumping"?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Card Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance by Cellini
    By Mickey in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-14-2019, 12:16 PM
  2. Is givign up -.02 % advantage too much for a card counter?
    By seriousplayer in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-30-2015, 06:14 PM
  3. Man charged with cheating with card counter hidden in pocket
    By Sonny in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-06-2014, 12:58 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.