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Thread: Index Chart for Secret Monkey Count

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    Index Chart for Secret Monkey Count

    Hello! Noob here trying to learn to count Spanish 21 recreationally. After digging through old threads here I get the impression that Secret Monkey Count is ancient technology and all the real APs use ace side counts, but I have enough trouble keeping a single count and I'm not overly concerned about volatility. So yeah, can anyone point me to the index charts? (I'm assuming they're different than the charts in Katarina Walker's book.)

    Game is S17 6D. Thanks!

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    I found a thread from 2009 where Monkey himself says the indices are just the KW indices +4, which makes sense but is a little surprising.

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    I would be skeptical too ..

    I can't comment on sp21 s17 but I have studied h17xxx and found that tagging the Ace -2 while keeping Kats indices(+4) actually performs worse than just sticking with Ace -1, proved thru sims on cvdata. PE is important in sp21 and tagging the Ace half weighted as -1 is similar to a Zen approach.

    If you go with Ace -2 then you'll need accurate indices .. but your PE will stink.

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    Thanks for the reply. So the point of the Monkey Count was better BE at the expense of PE? Or is there something I'm not understanding.

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    Monkey still occasionally posts on the BJ21 free forum. you might be able to touch base with him there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifetilt View Post
    Thanks for the reply. So the point of the Monkey Count was better BE at the expense of PE? Or is there something I'm not understanding.
    Ya thats a fair understanding. But if you have the right indices it should outperform Kats hilo.

    Someone here should have them .. I found soft double indices in an old file I had ..

    SMC S17 soft double indices for full deck resolution and flooring:

    A2v5: +9
    A2v6: +12
    A3v5: +8
    A3v6: +9
    A4v5: +8
    A4v6: -3
    A5v5: -1
    A5v6: -8
    A6v4: -1
    A6v5: -6
    A6v6: -10
    A7v3: +7
    A7v4: -1
    A7v5: -5
    A7v6: -6
    A8v4: +11
    A8v5: +8
    A8v6: +9
    A9v5: +11

  7. #7


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    [QUOTE=lifetilt;296279]Thanks for the reply. So the point of the Monkey Count was better BE at the expense of PE? Or is there something I'm not understanding.[/QUOTE

    For Spanish 21, S17 use Kat's Hi-Lo and simply keep 5mAc side count for betting only - use HL + 5mAc for betting only and use HL for all strategy changes.

    5mAc = Five minus Ace side count where you count 5's as +1 and Aces as -1.

    I use a more powerful system with simpler adjustments which I will not go into here.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 03-13-2021 at 04:31 AM.

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    i ran cv data with smc and added +4 to the Kat's indices and got results that appeared to outperform what Kat published. That said to compare correctly would need to adjust bet ramps to make sure that i am comparing apples to apples - not sure of the ramp that Kat used in her book and unfortunately she is not around to ask. I tried to generate SMC indices using CVData but wasnt satisfied with the results - not sure i had set up correctly and havent diddled with it in a while. Would like to go back and update my study of Spanish at some point but imo +4 approach is reasonable and should yield better results than Kats count.

    Cohiba

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohiba View Post
    i ran cv data with smc and added +4 to the Kat's indices and got results that appeared to outperform what Kat published.

    Cohiba
    Instead of using the level 2 Monkey Count can you do sims for Spanish 21 S17 using Kat's original HL for all playing strategy variations and use HL + 5mAc for betting and see what happens. Using HL and 5mAc, all counts are level one and no new indices need to be learned since you are using Kat's HL indices for all playing strategy decisions. Only betting is changed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting instead of HL. Everything else is the same as Kat's original system.

    If you want to be precise and adjust the betting ramps then for each HL true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.5% but for each (HL + 5mAc) true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.4%. (HL + 5mAc) has a greater SD than HL so for a given true count, (HL + 5mAc) will reach that true count more often than HL will and thus more betting opportunities are revealed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting.

    There are two types of betting errors using the less efficient HL as opposed to more efficient (HL + 5mAc) and they are (1) betting when you should not be betting and (2) not betting when you should be betting. (HL + 5mAc) fixes both of these HL betting errors.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 03-14-2021 at 12:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    Instead of using the level 2 Monkey Count can you do sims for Spanish 21 S17 using Kat's original HL for all playing strategy variations and use HL + 5mAc for betting and see what happens. Using HL and 5mAc, all counts are level one and no new indices need to be learned since you are using Kat's HL indices for all playing strategy decisions. Only betting is changed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting instead of HL. Everything else is the same as Kat's original system.

    If you want to be precise and adjust the betting ramps then for each HL true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.5% but for each (HL + 5mAc) true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.4%. (HL + 5mAc) has a greater SD than HL so for a given true count, (HL + 5mAc) will reach that true count more often than HL will and thus more betting opportunities are revealed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting.

    There are two types of betting errors using the less efficient HL as opposed to more efficient (HL + 5mAc) and they are (1) betting when you should not be betting and (2) not betting when you should be betting. (HL + 5mAc) fixes both of these HL betting errors.
    You do not need the complication of two counts. All you need is a combination of HiLo and The Ace density. Can somebody just sim the simplest strategy of HiLo+Ace density ?

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    Instead of using the level 2 Monkey Count can you do sims for Spanish 21 S17 using Kat's original HL for all playing strategy variations and use HL + 5mAc for betting and see what happens. Using HL and 5mAc, all counts are level one and no new indices need to be learned since you are using Kat's HL indices for all playing strategy decisions. Only betting is changed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting instead of HL. Everything else is the same as Kat's original system.

    If you want to be precise and adjust the betting ramps then for each HL true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.5% but for each (HL + 5mAc) true count player's basic strategy advantage increases by 0.4%. (HL + 5mAc) has a greater SD than HL so for a given true count, (HL + 5mAc) will reach that true count more often than HL will and thus more betting opportunities are revealed using (HL + 5mAc) for betting.

    There are two types of betting errors using the less efficient HL as opposed to more efficient (HL + 5mAc) and they are (1) betting when you should not be betting and (2) not betting when you should be betting. (HL + 5mAc) fixes both of these HL betting errors.
    I can try to set it up; need to load Kats system and set up a side count - pretty sure i can alter the betting for the side count, not sure if it wil impact the play decisions or not - an area of cvdata that i havent mess with. To bet clear the side count total is to be added to the main hl count to determine the actual bet?

    Thanks

    Cohiba

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cohiba View Post
    I can try to set it up; need to load Kats system and set up a side count - pretty sure i can alter the betting for the side count, not sure if it wil impact the play decisions or not - an area of cvdata that i havent mess with. To bet clear the side count total is to be added to the main hl count to determine the actual bet?

    Thanks

    Cohiba
    I have been seeking somebody to sim the same situation for blackjack using a combination of HiLo and the ace density. My proposal is when TC>+1 and aces are dense, I play one blackjack hand; when TC>+1 and aces are scarce, I play two blackjack hands. Can you also help sim my proposal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aceside View Post
    I have been seeking somebody to sim the same situation for blackjack using a combination of HiLo and the ace density. My proposal is when TC>+1 and aces are dense, I play one blackjack hand; when TC>+1 and aces are scarce, I play two blackjack hands. Can you also help sim my proposal?
    Ace - im not sure; think it can be set up as a side count. Kinda busy at the moment with life/work/new AP venture - remind me after you see my response on the spanish side count and i will take a look at. - thanks As an alternate approach why not just use the zen count which counts the aces as minus 2?

    Cohiba
    Last edited by Cohiba; 03-14-2021 at 09:07 PM.

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