Index Chart for Secret Monkey Count

[bjanalyst]

You do not need the complication of two counts. All you need is a combination of HiLo and The Ace density. Can somebody just sim the simplest strategy of HiLo+Ace density ?

HL + 5mAc is a better count for Spanish 21 S17 betting that HL with Ace Side Count (ASC).

You state "You do not need the complication of two counts". But HL with ASC are two counts, the HL and ASC, just like HL with 5mAc are two counts, HL and 5mAc.

The side count of Aces is not enough. You want BOTH a deficiency of 5's and an excess of Aces left in the shoe to improve Spanish 21 S17 betting.

Also the 5mAc is exact whereas a side count of Aces is approximate as you need to track the Aces played and compared to decks played to get Ace deficiency or excess.

5mAc is a very simple level one plus/minus side count recognizing only two ranks and is much simpler, more accurate and more efficient for Spanish 21 S17 betting that just keeping a side count of Aces.

If you did a sim on HL, HL w ASC and HL w 5mAc you would find HL w ASC beats HL and HL w 5mAc beats HL w ASC.

[bjanalyst]

Ace - im not sure; think it can be set up as a side count. Kinda busy at the moment with life/work/new AP venture - remind me after you see my response on the spanish side count and i will take a look at. - thanks As an alternate approach why not just use the zen count which counts the aces as minus 2?

Ray

You want to keep all counts level one.

Introducing the Zen count you get a level 2 count and also you need a new set of indices to memorize for the Zen for Spanish 21 S17.

That is why I keep on saying, keep HL and use HL for all strategy changes so there is nothing new to learn. Then just keep 5mAc and use 5mAc only for betting, that is, use HL + 5mAc for betting Spanish 21 S17.

[Norm]

That's one opinion. One I don't share.

[aceside]

HL + 5mAc is a better count for Spanish 21 S17 betting that HL with Ace Side Count (ASC).

You state "You do not need the complication of two counts". But HL with ASC are two counts, the HL and ASC, just like HL with 5mAc are two counts, HL and 5mAc.

The side count of Aces is not enough. You want BOTH a deficiency of 5's and an excess of Aces left in the shoe to improve Spanish 21 S17 betting.

Also the 5mAc is exact whereas a side count of Aces is approximate as you need to track the Aces played and compared to decks played to get Ace deficiency or excess.

5mAc is a very simple level one plus/minus side count recognizing only two ranks and is much simpler, more accurate and more efficient for Spanish 21 S17 betting that just keeping a side count of Aces.

If you did a sim on HL, HL w ASC and HL w 5mAc you would find HL w ASC beats HL and HL w 5mAc beats HL w ASC.

The Ace/Five count is a very weak system and the HiLo is a fine system. Both are for the betting purpose in blackjack. If you combine these two together, you want to get something stronger? I doubt because HiLo+Ace/Five is an much weaker indication of the Ace density. They might cancel each other. The ASC itself is an exact indicator of the Ace density and thus should beat the HiLo+Ace/Five. I don't want Zen because I want the flexibility for many different games.

[Cohiba]

BJ Analyst and Aceside - think that you guys are talking past each other discussing two different games - BJ was discussing a side count for Spanish. Assume aceside was talking about an ace side count for straight 21? I recommended Zen for straight 21 as its treatment of the ace is pretty good and saves alot of the work associated with a separate side count. Ace - you mentioned that you want to stay away from zen so you can use for other games - what games did you have in mind where you cant find zen indices for?

Cohiba - seems like alot of confusion at the moment!

[bjanalyst]

I can try to set it up; need to load Kats system and set up a side count - pretty sure i can alter the betting for the side count, not sure if it wil impact the play decisions or not - an area of cvdata that i havent mess with. To bet clear the side count total is to be added to the main hl count to determine the actual bet?

Thanks

Cohiba

The beauty of using HL with 5mAc is that Kat's HL is used for all Spanish 21 S17 playing strategy decisions and all of her index numbers can be used and no new coding for playing strategies is required. There is no extra learning of new indices or new systems. So there will be zero impact on playing decisions using HL w 5mAc which means you do not have to do any adjustments in playing decisions. You only need to adjust betting.

So for betting use HL + 5mAc and you can essentially use the same betting ramp as you do using stand alone Kat's HL. There will not be that much difference if you just stick to the HL betting ramp and use HL + 5mAc for betting as if it were HL for betting.

If you want to be more precise, HL + 5mAc increases basic strategy players advantage by 0.4% per true count point whereas HL increases basic strategy player's advantage by 0.5% per true count point. I do not think it is worth the extra effort to adjust the betting ramp and the adjustment will be negligible and I doubt it will have much impact on the final result but you can adjust if you think you must.

So this sim requires the minimal amount of adjustments to Kat's HL sim program. You are using Kat's HL and indices for all playing strategy decision so no adjustments need to be made for playing strategies and you are using (HL + 5mAc) for betting instead of HL and to keep it simple leave the betting ramp unchanged and just substitute for betting (HL + 5mAc) wherever HL was used for betting.

Note that HL + 5mAc used for betting is actually a level 2 count with that tags of
1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, -1, -2 for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, A.

What you are doing is adding 5mAc which is
0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1 for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, A

to HL which is
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, -1, -1 for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, A

which gives you (HL + 5mAc) for Spanish 21 S17 betting
1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, -1, -2 for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, A

So yes, simply add 5mAc to HL to get this derived (HL + 5mAc) count which is used for betting only. Continue to use HL for all playing strategy decisions.

[bjanalyst]

The Ace/Five count is a very weak system and the HiLo is a fine system. Both are for the betting purpose in blackjack. If you combine these two together, you want to get something stronger? I doubt because HiLo+Ace/Five is an much weaker indication of the Ace density. They might cancel each other. The ASC itself is an exact indicator of the Ace density and thus should beat the HiLo+Ace/Five. I don't want Zen because I want the flexibility for many different games.

For Spanish 21 S17 we are not just concerned about the Ace density, we are also concerned about the Five density. You want a deficiency of Fives and an excess of Aces which is what a positive 5mAc indicates.

So if you just kept an ASC (Ace Side Count) with HL and use HL w ASC for betting you would improve HL Spanish 21 S17 betting but if you use HL w 5mAc for Spanish 21 S17 betting you will improve betting even more. Also 5mAc is exact and easier to keep whereas ASC is an estimate as it requires estimating decks played and keeping a track of an ever increasing Aces played as cards are played.

[DSchles]

For Spanish 21 S17 we are not just concerned about the Ace density, we are also concerned about the Five density. You want a deficiency of Fives and an excess of Aces which is what a positive 5mAc indicates.

So if you just kept an ASC (Ace Side Count) with HL and use HL w ASC for betting you would improve HL Spanish 21 S17 betting but if you use HL w 5mAc for Spanish 21 S17 betting you will improve betting even more. Also 5mAc is exact and easier to keep whereas ASC is an estimate as it requires estimating decks played and keeping a track of an ever increasing Aces played as cards are played.

We're just getting a handle on the pandemic. What did we do to deserve the return of this older scourge? Over/under for this thread, now at 21: 105. Sigh.

Don

[bjanalyst]

We're just getting a handle on the pandemic. What did we do to deserve the return of this older scourge? Over/under for this thread, now at 21: 105. Sigh.

Don

We are talking about Spanish 21 S17, not Blackjack S17.

HL Spanish 21 S17 betting efficiency is only 91.8% and HL + 5mAc betting efficiency 97.5% for a 5.7% increase in betting efficiency.

Compare to Blackjack S17 where HL betting efficiency if 96.5% and HL + (1/2)*(5m9c) betting efficiency is 98.4% for a 1.9% increase in betting efficiency.

So adding 5mAc to HL for Spanish 21 S17 betting helps much more than adding (1/2)*(5m9c) to HL for Blackjack S17 betting.

So adding 5mAc to HL for Spanish 21 S17 betting should make a significant improvement.

Just be patient and wait for Cohiba's sim results and you will see.

[aceside]

We are talking about Spanish 21 S17, not Blackjack S17.

HL Spanish 21 S17 betting efficiency is only 91.8% and HL + 5mAc betting efficiency 97.5% for a 5.7% increase in betting efficiency.

Compare to Blackjack S17 where HL betting efficiency if 96.5% and HL + (1/2)*(5m9c) betting efficiency is 98.4% for a 1.9% increase in betting efficiency.

So adding 5mAc to HL for Spanish 21 S17 betting helps much more than adding (1/2)*(5m9c) to HL for Blackjack S17 betting.

So adding 5mAc to HL for Spanish 21 S17 betting should make a significant improvement.

Just be patient and wait for Cohiba's sim results and you will see.

Why not just stick to the two simplest counting systems?
1. Secret monkey count, 1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1,-2. What are the EOR for a Five and an Ace?
2. HiLo+ASC. What is the betting efficiency for HiLo+ASC?

[Cohiba]

Ace it’s not clear what you are asking. That said played billions of hands of Spanish this evening. Interesting results but I am going to bed

Cohiba

[Cohiba]

What I mean by not clear what you are asking. I can’t run a sim off a few general comments or questions. Need to be specific as to game play and bet strategy to be examined. Ow no way to respond in a meaningful manner

Cohiba

[aceside]

What I mean by not clear what you are asking. I can’t run a sim off a few general comments or questions. Need to be specific as to game play and bet strategy to be examined. Ow no way to respond in a meaningful manner

Cohiba

Don't worry. I was just making some comments to bjanalyst. I don't play SP 21 anyway. I really hope you can sim this blackjack situation for me: Consider a 6-deck black shoe with strip rules to play solo using the Kelly bet spread. When TC>+1 and ace density>4 per deck, I play one blackjack hand; when TC>+1 and ace density<4 per deck, I play two blackjack hands. Can we gain some profit from this ASC?