Backed off after a relatively small win. Is this normal?

**jjjggg** · 03-18-2013, 10:11 PM

First time poster here. I've made about 5 trips to Vegas in the last 2 years and, as an initial goal, have been working at building an initial investment of $3000 into a bankroll of $10,000. I had some great wins this past weekend and am now up to $7900 (but I needed to pay myself back for some expenses and so effectively have a BR of $6500 now). I played at one store in the Vegas area for just 1.5 hours, bought in for $200, and won about $1700 in that time. Stood up, colored up, and just as I was about to head to the cashier, a floor guy backed me off. He told me I'm not allowed to play blackjack anymore but was perfectly welcome to play anything else. (As an aside, he was strangely nice about it.) I gave a little sigh of exasperation, told him ok, and went to cash out. I was really surprised. This is a moderate-sized store, and I wouldn't have thought a $1700 win would garner much attention. I was varying my bets with the count (2 hands of $10-$60), but it wasn't my great playing skill that was accounting for the win. I made very few index plays: a few insurance decisions and 16 vs. 10 plays. The fact is, I was just "lucky" and got great hand after great hand while the dealer kept breaking at all the right times. I guess I stayed a little longer than I should have, but I'm wondering if this is normal and it's time for me to start paying more serious attention to camouflage strategies. Thoughts? Thanks.

-jjjggg

**Intermediate** · 03-19-2013, 05:34 AM

You didn't say what kind of game it was e.g., 2D, 6D, and if you were switching between one and two hands with the count. Based on your spread, I'm guessing 2D. During the slower times of the week or day, surveillance has more time to watch, and I think playing two hands at 2D with your spread would have been worth some attention. If you had played there the day before, they may had already made a note to evaluate you further the next time you came in. I was backed off twice earlier in my career betting red and two hands, winning a whole lot less than you did (I was actually down one of those times), and then going back during the same trip. I don't think the win total matters once they decide to evaluate your skill level, and in 1.5 hours you gave them enough data points. I'd say stick to one hand and shorter sessions rather than give up EV with betting camouflage.

**21forme** · 03-19-2013, 06:02 AM

It's not how much you win, but how you play the game. Many APs will tell you they were backed off more often when down, than up.

**blackjackomaha** · 03-19-2013, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by 21forme

It's not how much you win, but how you play the game. Many APs will tell you they were backed off more often when down, than up.

+1. How you play has much more of an impact than your win/loss.

**NT21** · 03-19-2013, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by 21forme

It's not how much you win, but how you play the game. Many APs will tell you they were backed off more often when down, than up.

+2 It's absolutely not how much you win or lose. Do you think a casino that identifies someone as a counter and say, "we should back him off, but let's just wait until he's winning"? And when you said you played for "just" 90 minutes, that's plenty of time for them to evaluate your play, especially if you have good counts early on.

That being said, I wouldn't start implementing camo just because of one backoff.

**moo321** · 03-19-2013, 06:52 AM

Vegas Double Deck is sweaty. You're going to get backed off. If you played on a card, it's possible the card was previously heated up. But, in general, I don't recommend rated play on vegas DD because it's gotten so damn sweaty (they're backing off red chippers).

Also, if you're ever backed off, don't go to the cage. ALWAYS IMMEDIATELY hit the door. Don't ask if you can play other games, don't go to the cage (they may take a better picture or try to back room you once you're out of view of civilians), just leave. Immediately.

**Baberuth** · 03-19-2013, 07:36 AM

jjjggg, It may or not be that you were counted down. The combination of 90 minutes, winning 1700 at your stakes and some AP moves flagged you. They had plenty of time to check you out. 40 minutes for Vegas DD with a good plan is about it. The pit in DD is ready for you. If you had lost, you were still going to get nailed. They love to back you off during a loss. It is a double victory for them. I could guess what store you were at or at least what chain, but not here. There is a good chance you will be able to play at other stores in the chain, but short sessions. If you play for more than an hour, you will draw attention and if deemed a threat, you will be backed off. More than that is Russian Roulette. There are so many places to play in Vegas, why flaunt it for over an hour at one store. They will take just so much as the Bossman warns.

**zengrifter** · 03-19-2013, 09:28 AM

User is banned, content deleted.

**BJmath** · 03-19-2013, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Baberuth

They love to back you off during a loss.

I attest to this, based on my own experience (at Aria). lol

**jjjggg** · 03-19-2013, 10:22 AM

OK, thanks for the comments. Yes, I was playing DD. No, not switching between 1 and 2 hands. Always playing 2. I've been playing DD exclusively until this past trip when I tried my hand at 6D. My 6D deck estimation skills could use some refining, but I was surprised to find that the transition wasn't as difficult as I had anticipated. A few follow-up questions:

1) Do you think one can play a little longer at 6D or should one still keep it to 45 minutes maximum?
2) If you stick to such short sessions, do you not feel like all the transit time from one store to another is eating into your EV? Or is that just the price of doing business?
3) If you get backed off and are supposed to pocket the chips and leave without hitting the cage, when and how do you cash in? I've noticed that they tend to call the pit for confirmation if I show up with big denomination chips, so if I were to show up with them to cash in on a different shift won't that be a problem?

Thanks again.

-jjjggg

**21forme** · 03-19-2013, 11:12 AM

1. Yes, but it's better to get up for a break and/or find another table (or pit) if you end a shoe with max bet.
2. Absolutely. That's one of the things I hate about Vegas. Having "grown up" in AC, I'm used to moving quickly from casino to casino.
3. Go back the next shift. if you're traveling with wife or signif other, let them cash out for you later. It's best to avoid chips larger than purple to avoid hassles at the cage. If they try to give you bigger chips, just ask for purples.

**zengrifter** · 03-19-2013, 11:32 AM

User is banned, content deleted.

**jjjggg** · 03-19-2013, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by zengrifter

Was this your first ever backoff?

Actually, it was my second time. My first one was on my first trip as a counter (about 2 years ago) and came after only about 45 minutes and only winning about $500! So...that's seems even more strange. On the other hand, I've made the mistake of playing at other stores sometimes for several hours in a row and NOT been backed off, even when I was winning. I'm not sure how to make sense of when they do and don't decide to back someone off.

---jjjggg