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Thread: Share you Spanish21 experiences

  1. #1


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    Share you Spanish21 experiences

    Looking to get into counting Spanish.

    How would you compare the game to that of counting blackjack? Hows the heat compared to blackjack.

    Anything else to know about Spanish? Katarinas book just came in.

    I am strongly considering switching to Spanish once I arrive in the US

  2. #2


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    Nitram,

    Unlike at BJ, I have never been backed off at Sp21, and have received only very mild heat from the PC's while playing. I will caution you to develop a VERY thick skin, because even BS plays will elicit negative comments from the other players.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

  3. #3


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    Comments refer to West Coast Spanish. My limited sp21 is H17 xxx. Very popular in Washington and Oregon. In some locales, Spanish tables are literally overflowing while dd and 6d tables are empty. Also, as popular as Spanish is, the quality of play was extra horrendously bad. Nobody knew how to play it.

    Further, by your comments, you don’t know the game. If correct, read Katarinas book forward and backwards, especially those portions that refer to the xxx h17 game. Season yourself first by playing low stakes.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Further, by your comments, you don’t know the game. If correct, read Katarinas book forward and backwards, especially those portions that refer to the xxx h17 game. Season yourself first by playing low stakes.
    I would stay away from the H17 Spanish 21 game. It is very inferior to S17. In PA the casinos by law must stand on soft 17 for blackjack and Spanish 21.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitram View Post
    Looking to get into counting Spanish.

    How would you compare the game to that of counting blackjack? How's the heat compared to blackjack.

    Anything else to know about Spanish? Katarina's book just came in.

    I am strongly considering switching to Spanish once I arrive in the US
    Do not play the H17 Spanish 21. The H17 game starts out with a larger disadvantage than the S17 game and you cannot start increasing your bets with H17 unit a true count of 3 with break even at a true count of 2. S17 the casinos start with a 0.5% edge similar to blackjack so you can increase your Spanish 21 bets at a true count of 2 and break even at a true count of 1, similar to blackjack betting.

    So stick with S17 Spanish 21 - do not patronize the lousy H17 games. In PA all casinos by law must stand on soft 17 for both blackjack and Spanish 21.

    Also if you use Katarina Walker's Hi Low it is unbalanced with a pivot at a true count of four (since the 10's are removed) similar to the KO in blackjack being unbalanced with a pivot of a true count of 4 so my Table of Critical Running Counts (TCRC) for KO can be used for Spanish 21 HL also.

    So my only comments on Spanish 21 are

    1. Stay away from H17 games. Play only S17 games.

    2. Read Katarina's Spanish 21 book and use Katarina's HL for Spanish 21.

    3. Use six and eight deck TCRC (Table of Critical Running Counts) for KO for Spanish 21 HL.

    4. With TCRC, Katarina' HL indices HL need to be increased by 4. That is because Katarina calculates her "true count" as (HL - 4*n) / dr where n = number or decks and dr = decks remaining and published her indices according to her "true count" calculation. TCRC calculates true counts as 4 + (HL - 4*n) / dr thus Katarina's indices need to be increased by 4 and then the TCRC can be used. Katarina's "true count" calculations are extremely difficult to do in a casino. The TCRC is easy to implement with no calculations, just a mental TCRC lookup.

    For Spanish 21 S17, the HL betting efficiency is only 92% as opposed to HL for blackjack with a betting efficiency of 96.5%. So the Spanish 21 HL really needs a side count to help with betting.

    I have done a complete analysis of Spanish 21 with side counts for both betting and playing strategy variations as I have done for blackjack.

    However, some rude readers of this forum have insulted and personally attacked my character many, many times so I will not list any details of my system on this forum to this extremely hostile audience. They cannot find any errors in my work so instead they attack me personally. How low can you go?

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    I would stay away from the H17 Spanish 21 game. It is very inferior to S17. In PA the casinos by law must stand on soft 17 for blackjack and Spanish 21.
    OP has suggested his general locale area in the past. If I’m correct, he will play west coast. S17 is not played on the west coast. It’s still beatable though, but variance is higher in the h17 version.

    To OP, forgot to mention, your edge is slightly reduced if your 3rd double is limited by table max, which is a consideration of west coast games. So, you should consider that when choosing your min bet. I don’t think that is in Katarinas book.

  7. #7


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    BJAnalyst said
    “ Also if you use Katarina Walker's Hi Low it is unbalanced with a pivot at a true count of four (since the 10's are removed) similar to the KO in blackjack being unbalanced with a pivot of a true count of 4 so my Table of Critical Running Counts (TCRC) for KO can be used for Spanish 21 HL also.

    So my only comments on Spanish 21 are

    1. Stay away from H17 games. Play only S17 games.

    2. Read Katarina's Spanish 21 book and use Katarina's HL for Spanish 21.

    3. Use six and eight deck TCRC (Table of Critical Running Counts) for KO for Spanish 21 HL.”

    Freightman suggests that
    Rather than investing tons of time on a game you don’t know and will seldom play, use hi lo, starting with -24 On the 6 deck game. Break even is about -3 as I recall, and your max bet is out at about true 0. If you get positive counts, blast away.

    Whereas blackjack has a rule of thumb Of .5 increase in edge per true count, you can hike that to .7 at Spanish. I haven’t played in years and I’ve forgotten a lot. Again, if you’re going to play this game - it’s fun but it’s dangerous - it has high variance - strategy is entirely different than BJ - you’ll get hammered if you use BJ strategy for Spanish.

    One last point. If you go to Pennsylvania, play their great BJ games you know, rather than the great Spanish game you don’t.

  8. #8
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    1. Yes, in PA play straight BJ.
    2. Don't know post-Covid, but in WA, definitely play the H17 SP21 games.
    3. Ignore any analysis based solely on EoRs. A lot of work has been done on SP21.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    1. Stay away from H17 games. Play only S17 games.
    Only if redoubling is not permitted in the H17 game. With redoubling in the H17 game, house edge is almost the same.

    I've only played east coast (S17) Sp21. While heat exists, it is considerably less than BJ. Variance is greater than BJ (especially in the H17 redouble game).

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Only if redoubling is not permitted in the H17 game. With redoubling in the H17 game, house edge is almost the same.

    I've only played east coast (S17) Sp21. While heat exists, it is considerably less than BJ. Variance is greater than BJ (especially in the H17 redouble game).
    Which I have confirmed, west coast Spanish is h17 xxx. It was fun doubling 7v6, snagging a 2, double double, snagging another 2, double double double. Again, as an observation, quality of play was atrocious.

  11. #11


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    Freightman said
    “To OP, forgot to mention, your edge is slightly reduced if your 3rd double is limited by table max, which is a consideration of west coast games. So, you should consider that when choosing your min bet. I don’t think that is in Katarinas book.“

    Freightman clarifies - should have explained further. Consider what your min bet is, so that your double double double bet is not reduced because of table max.

  12. #12


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    A couple of amusing comment heard while playing Sp21:

    1. "He sure is lucky for a lousy player" (after hitting 12 v 5 and winning).
    2. "Why are you even playing this game if you don't play the MTD side bet?"

    It's definitely a more entertaining game than BJ when there are other players at the table. (Are there ever other players at the table?)

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    A couple of amusing comment heard while playing Sp21:

    1. "He sure is lucky for a lousy player" (after hitting 12 v 5 and winning).
    2. "Why are you even playing this game if you don't play the MTD side bet?"

    It's definitely a more entertaining game than BJ when there are other players at the table. (Are there ever other players at the table?)
    One place in Washington state, game was super slow plodding with this huge I think an 8 seat table. Meanwhile, I’m heads up at double deck, nice cut, winning in positive counts with dealer cajoling me into a frenzy to increase my bets - I accommodated the dealer parlaying with critter watching - just another poppy on a ride influenced by the dealer - it was perfect.

    Another hitting my 14 or so against 5, calling it at the table and getting my 6 card bonus.

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