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Thread: More Indices or Higher Level Count

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    The very personification of the meaning of the word "incorrigible," literally someone who is incapable of being corrected.

    Don
    Very annoying person. Ruins any thread he comments on.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    I got to thinking when I read Don's post below about how many indices one uses. It has been said that beyond the Catch 22 more indices don't help that much. Yet I noticed 21forme says he uses around 100 indices but is still using a low level count like Hi-Lo. Damn, a 100 indices must be a bitch to memorize for very little additional gain.

    Would it be better to use a higher level count (like Wong Halves) and forget about using more indices than the catch 22. Is there some break even point where learning a higher level count is better than adding any more indices? Any studies done on this?
    Hi Midwest

    I believe the extra effort should go into learning how to side count before learning a higher level count. Knowing how to side count effectively gives more options on your choice of multi level count. The extra indices will come. Whenever you are unsure of play, look up the correct index after the session. You will know 50 plus indices in no time with little effort. The harder part is to maintain multiple counts with no errors. Very useful when Wonging so you can count multiple tables at the same time, or necessary when playing a system like Hi Opt which requires a side count of aces.
    "Chance favours the prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
    "Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. My strength lies solely in my tenacity" - Louis Pasteur

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    That's not a problem. That's an advantage. Vastly simpler than what you are talking about.
    Keeping the level 3 Wong's Halves is not easy as far as I am concerned, it is very, very difficult and prone to errors and mentally exhausting as well.

    I have been keeping KO with side counts for years using chips with zero problems and zero heat despite my obvious moving chips around. My friend who does not want to use chips because he said it would draw heat from the casino has been bared from several casinos based on his HL play and betting. I use KO with side counts which has built in cover plays that are correct but look like errors to the casino and have never had any heat or thrown out. If just using chips were cause to get thrown out, I would have been thrown out years ago.

    Using chips I can keep the side counts accurately and with no mental effort. I just keep KO in my head and chips for side counts. Not sure why everyone says this is difficult to do because it is not. Tarzan's count is difficult KO or HL with side counts are easy. You are just adding two integers together, AA78mTc + HL, to get a Ten count. Why do you say adding two small integers is difficult?

    For Lucky Ladies insurance and hit/stand on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5 6 you just add the counts together to get what I call a psrc = playing strategy running count. Also LL can have player edges of over 20% at times (but lots of variance).

    So HL with AA78mTc and 5m9c is the HL version of my KO with AA89mTc and 5m9c and since the HL is the base count there is no need for a Table of Critical Running counts with HL w AA78mTc and 5m9c.

    And adding AA78mTc to HL also helps with cover plays which if the casino is tracking you with HL they will think are errors. For example. if AA78mTc is positive enough you would be betting LL, taking insurance and standing on hard 12 v 2 with tc(HL) = 0. Or if AA78mTc were negative enough you would not be taking insurance, hitting not only hard 12 v 2 but maybe even hard 12 v 6 which is a basis strategy stand when tc(HL) = 6 for example and not making the Lucky Ladies bet either. With the LL count you bet LL when tc(HL) >= 6.5 so if the casino looks out for players who bet maximum LL bets only when tc(HL) is larger and are also betting their maximum blackjack bet. A dead give away to be barred from casino right away.

    So not only does AA78mTc help the HL with increasing expectation it also increases casino longevity with cover plays that the casino thinks are errors but are actually correct.

    Also I taught AA89mTc to use AA89mTc with the KO to my fiend Carla who learned it in less than a week and successfully used it to help with the Lucky Ladies bet. Carla is just average intelligence and I tested her and she kept KO and AA89mTc correctly.. This was a one week learning period for Carla who did not even know how to count before that. And Carla kept both integer counts in her head, KO and AA89mTc, no problem

    I think the problem is that counters do not like change (like many other people do not like new ideas) and are resistance to new ideas.

    HL w AA78mTc and 5m9c is VERY easy to learn and keep.

    Before you make a final judgment on HL w AA78mTc and 5m9c I would ask you to have Gronbog forward the email I sent him with a draft version of HL w AA78mTc and 5m9c for you to review. This book is basically a "how too: book with examples and I have excluded theory so the book is only around 60 pages. Not long at all and an easy read.

    Also keeping AA78mTc and 5m9c with the HL is much easier than keeping over 100 HL indices and much stronger.

    Furthermore I will make a predication on handicapping HL w AA78mTc and 5m9c by using only the 118 for strategy changes and 5m9c with HL for betting and this handicapped system will beat HO2 w ASC using all lindies.

    So the question is which is easier - using WH with 100 indices or using HL w 5m9c and AA78mTc using chips to keep AA78mTc and 45m9c and using just the I18 so only 18 indices to learn.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 09-18-2020 at 06:14 PM.

  4. #17
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Too many words. I have never and would never advise Halves. Some can do it, and more power to them. But, I don't like any count over level 2 personally. But, to most people, level 2 is easier than using side counts by a long shot. Again, up to a particular person.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Too many words. I have never and would never advise Halves. Some can do it, and more power to them. But, I don't like any count over level 2 personally. But, to most people, level 2 is easier than using side counts by a long shot. Again, up to a particular person.
    Sorry for the following "long response" but I sort of need this long response to make my HL w AA78mTc case clear.

    An important advantage of the side counts over a level 2 count, for example, is the cover play I mentioned. That is why my response was "long" - I concentrated on cover play examples which I think are extremely important and lacking in all primary counts without any side counts added including the level 2 counts you referred to. Also I do not like ASC as they are approximate and difficult to keep. I like plus/minus side counts which are easy to keep and are exact.

    Basically I do not care what count system you use and what sims that Don has in mind for his I18 or catch 22 or any other analysis that he has done. If you get kicked out of casino after casino for counting with the stand alone HL or any other stand alone primary count (no side counts added), then all of the work you did to learn counting was for nothing!

    I mentioned to you that my friend has been kicked out of around a half dozen casinos using the HL count. He has always been very aware of the pit and takes precaution to try to avoid being barred if he feels he is being watched but it still happens. So even with all of his caution, eventually the casinos tell him to leave. So he leaves for around two or thee months before he even tries to come back and slip in unnoticed again or tries to come back at a different shift with a different pit bass as he was not permanently banned but he is being watched. He does not complain or make any scene but leaves quietly so to keep as low a profile as possible.

    But it would be great not to be banned at all in the first place and labeled as a regular loser who is trying to count so the casinos think you are a poor counter. Casinos are not going to bar every person they think counts as over 90% of those who try to count are overall losers. Just a few of these plays I mentioned previously that are correct but seem to be incorrect may be enough to convince the casino you are an overall losing counter and no threat.

    I showed him HL w AA78mTc (I am not given him 5m9c for now as I do not want to confuse him - getting him to use the AA78mTc with the HL is a monumental task enough because he did not want to change). After reading what i sent him he has finally agreed with me that this is very powerful and very useful for cover play. He is studying it now and says it will take him only about a week to learn and use and keep the AA78mTc with chips. Surreptitiously updating one stack of chips among the several stacks of betting chips is easy to hide - you are just playing with your chips. Again, adding and using AA78mTc is easy and is not difficult to do at all.

    I have been telling him this for over a year now and he, like every single person on this forum, insist that adding a plus/minus side count to HL is too difficult to do and the adding two small integers is complicated!! I really do not get this line of reasoning at all.

    Even if AA78mTc did not increase SCORE at all and just added cover play it would be worth keeping. My friend after reviewing the HL w AA78mTc that i sent him has finally agreed with me after I have been telling him this for a year. So your reluctance to learn this "difficult" count is understandable and in line with every other counter I meet. I have meet over a dozen counters over the years and every single counter I meet used the HL and they do not want to switch from the HL to any other count or do anything different than the pure HL and do not want to learn anything new. They are a very stubborn group.

    But the stand alone HL will get you barred from casino after casino eventually.

    Furthermore Gronbog actually did sims of HL w AA78mTc so besides cover play it also increases the SCORE which is consistent with my calculated increase in HL CC by adding this side counts. Also most of this SCORE increase in blackjack by adding the AA78mTc comes from insurance and standing on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as shown through Gronbog's sims which is again in line with my weighted correlation coefficients. So you can use a shorten version of adding AA78mTc to HL with just using AA78mTc for help with Lucky Ladies and Super 4 bet and insurance and standing on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. LLc = Lucky Ladies count = Tc = Ten count = HL + AA78mTc and S4c = Super 4 count = HL - (3/4)*(AA78mTc). You do not get this flexibility with a stand alone primary count with no side counts.

    And just a week study you should easily be able to add AA78mTc That is how long it took my friend Carla to learn to keep the AA89mTc with the KO which she used for the LL bet and she is easily able to keep both the KO and AA89MTc in her head with no need for chips and I checked her out - she did not make any errors either. And Carla is just average so if Carla can do it any devoted counter can easily do it. Keeping two integers in your had and adding them when appropriate for some playing strategy play does not require some world class record in mental gymnastics to accomplish as all the HL counters I meet seem to think.

    Also my friend who got kicked out of several casinos and has steadfastly refused to listen to me for over a year and only wanted to use the stand alone HL is now finally studying the AA78mTc and wants to add it to the HL. He sees the advantages of adding AA78mTc to the HL both to increase SCORE and for cover plays.

    Also Gronbog only did sims for blackjack. AA78mTc also helps enormously the Lucky Ladies side bet where your edge can be as high as 20% at times. The LL bet is independent of the blackjack bet and so adds a larger sample size of profitable bets made per hour and reduces risk as well. And AA78mTc also helps with the Super 4 bet as described above.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 09-18-2020 at 11:51 PM.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    The very personification of the meaning of the word "incorrigible," literally someone who is incapable of being corrected.

    Don
    I have been posting my results for close to two years now. Unlike your comment above, I am totally open to criticism or being corrected. But I also think it is important to state facts. The facts are the facts and the facts are that no one in almost two years has yet pointed out any errors in my work so far.

    Compare my release of every single sim Gronbog did for me and every single time the CC increased the SCORE increased. Compare my openness with Tarzan who allowed the sim results only of his no LS play be released but Tarzan sim of LS was also done but Tarzan did not want it released. Makes you wonder why. Perhaps Tarzan has something to hide or his system is not as great as he tries to portray it to be and is not robust enough to cover LS or other plays.

    Also talk about complex count systems, Tarzan's count system is incredibly complex and difficult with at least four level of complexity. In my system you add two small integers together and everyone complains that it is too complicated and difficult to add two small integers. I do not get it.

    So I am open to any "corrections" you find. The problem is neither you nor anyone else had found any "corrections". I am not bragging, just stating facts in response to your comment that I am incapable of being corrected.

    I have mentioned dozens of times in previous posts that I am totally open to constructive criticism or legitimate questions, but I am not open to attacks on my character. Attack my work not my character. But so far there has not been any successful attack on any of my work.

    So show me some errors that I made if you can and contrary to your statement I am incapable of being corrected, I will graciously accept the corrections and also be thankful for pointing out any errors I may have made. If I made errors I want to know.

    So please tell me some errors I made but please no attacks on my character or comments such as I am incapable of being corrected.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 09-18-2020 at 11:52 PM.

  7. #20
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Far too many words again. There is very little cover play provided by using side counts.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Far too many words again.
    Every time you say that, his posts get longer

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Every time you say that, his posts get longer
    There long and as Don pointed out the same repetitive material.

    He needs to use less words with his nonsense.

  10. #23
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    My friend who does not want to use chips because he said it would draw heat from the casino has been bared from several casinos based on his HL play and betting. I use KO with side counts which has built in cover plays that are correct but look like errors to the casino and have never had any heat or thrown out. If just using chips were cause to get thrown out, I would have been thrown out years ago.

    .
    The reason for the ban is only Hi Lo and betting ? I do not believe !
    Last edited by Gramazeka; 09-19-2020 at 08:40 AM.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  11. #24
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst;2916 a59
    The facts are the facts and the facts are that no one in almost two years has yet pointed out any errors in my work so far..
    Well then I'll be the first .
    1. You overestimate the disguise your system produces.
    2. In Blackjack games, it is the size of the bet and bankroll that makes money. Your endeavors at witchcraft and disguise are nothing more than mental masturbation. Real life game and computer simulation these are two different things.
    3. You don't count the speed system of systems hand/hour.
    4. You heavily burden the system Hi Lo. It's better to just add a side sevens count.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  12. #25
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    I agree, except for "real life game and computer simulation" are different. Only if you don't simulate correctly.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  13. #26


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Far too many words again. There is very little cover play provided by using side counts.
    Again, sorry for a post that you consider long, but for me to properly reply to your short comment about zero little cover I need to give examples.

    There is valuable cover play if adding AA78mTc to the HL especially if the Lucky Ladies is offered.

    I respectfully disagree with you when you say there is very little cover provided - I disagree based on my actual experience which speaks for itself. I have been playing for several years now with zero heat using KO w AA89mTc and 5m9c and chips and winning. The casino thinks that I am an idiot and loser because of these cover plays which I will explain.

    Contrast my experience with my friend who only uses the stand alone HL and has been thrown out of several casinos including the casino I currently play at for years with zero heat.

    Let me give you an example below.

    You make the LL bet when tc(HL) >= 6.5 and casinos know this. If they see that you always make your maximum LL bet when you make your maximum blackjack bet a red flag is raised and then if they casino reruns the tapes and see that the tc(HL) Is always very high when you make these bets then you will be potentially caught and barred.

    Using Tc = HL + AA78mTc and start increasing LL bet whenever tc(Tc) >= 6 there are situations where tc(HL) could be small (and so small blackjack bet) and tc(AA78mTc) is large so you make your maximum LL bet. SD(AA78mTc) = SD(HL) so AA78mTc has as much volatility as HL. I have seen AA89mTc (which is what I use) over 20 or less than -20 many times. So there have been many times when I have bet table minimum of $15 and maximum $25 Lucky Ladies. In particular I remember a particular incident where this happened. I had a $15 blackjack bet and $25 LL bet and got a suited and matched for 25 to 1 LL payout and won $625 on my $25 bet. The pit boss came over and looked at my maximum LL bet and minimum blackjack bet and thought I was just a lucky jerk. Of course it could happen that both tc(HL) and tc(AA78mTc) are large and I have a large LL bet and large blackjack bet which alerts the casino but then they remember the large LL with small blackjack bet also. My bets seem to be all over the place and not related to the tc(HL) and that I do not always bet my maximum LL bet when I bet my maximum blackjack bet.

    Then are are instances base on Tc = HL + AA78mTc where you would take insurance at a tc(HL) = 0 if tc(AA78mTc) were large enough or instances where you would not take insurance and not only hit hard 12 v 2 but actually hit hard 12 v 6 if tc(HL) = 6 and your maximum bet out if tc(AA78mTc) were negative enough and may other cover plays that look incorrect if being tracked with the stand alone HL by the casino.

    If the casinos suspect you of counting they look mainly at your blackjack betting but also use some of the I18 to examine your play, especially with your maximum bet out. The casino would expect that if your maximum bet is out you would take insurance and stand on hard 12 v 2 and they certainly would not expect you to be hitting hard 12 v 6 with your maximum bet out which would lead the casino to believe that you do not even know basic strategy.

    Just a few of these "mistakes" will lead the casino to think that if you are a counter you are a very poor counter and no threat.

    So based on years of play with zero heat I can tell you that these cover plays do work great and they are the correct plays also.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 09-19-2020 at 09:08 AM.

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