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Thread: FBM ASC Basic and Advanced - Outline, by request

  1. #14


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    Response to Jack Jackson
    My comments after your question or statement

    Im not sure if your ramp is based on your edge though..It almost seems as if your just using a fancy betting spread/strategy, just not sure.

    Each Ramp is sufficient to win on its own. Each ramp has an edge taking deck pen into consideration, taking constraints as listed in OP into account. Not in OP are chip up chip down styles designed to make me look like a progression bettor. Part of Of the upper and lower ramp strategy makes you look like a poor deck estimator (can’t hide the fact that you’re counting). ExampLe would be lower to upper ramp increasing bet while count decreases.

    Nevertheless, i could speculate here and say your using the upper ramp using the middle cards to increase your chance at blackjack. Also since i side count Aces already myself ive seen a million times a good positive count only to have a surplus of Aces Played justify a 1unit bet. And sure enough i pull that XX on a 1 unit bet.

    From your description, it’s almost certain to me that you’re using an Ace Neutral System, possibly hi opt 2. I play halves ace reckoned. I’ll generally be at or close to proper true count. Point is, will I be on lower or upper ramp. That’s determined by group proportions. On the contrary, it’s a shortage of intermediate cards that will put me in the upper ramp, which as a matter of certainty, does increase blackjacks, but not close to the sole reason that I’ll be on the upper ramp. Just as High true count doubles and splits will increase chances of success versus low true count doubles and splits - identical true counts with a lower proportion of intermediates will enjoy a higher success rate than the identical true count with a higher proportion of intermediates. Your question really is the crux of QTC, which I’ll put in a separate post, the logic being plain as day once explained.

    So maybe, and i might be speculating here, but you could possibly be using one ramp for blackjacks and the other for QTC i dont know..

    No, QTC is a function of high to intermediate to low cards. Shortage of intermediates improves QTC. Will be explained in separate post.

    But in Nut Shell, are you suggesting a dual ramp with WH against Multiple Decks and side counting the middle cards too? Gonna be tough!

    Essentially, yes, but with a twist. The dual ramp itself is easy to manage. Intermediate density Calc is tough, used to be really tough, if not impossible when first looking at ways of doing this. This is what determines upper or lower ramp. It’s simplified somewhat. Think I’ll put that in that other post as well.

  2. #15


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    Easiest way to demo QTC, think single deck. Use Hi Lo. Think exactly 26 cards left, RC =5, TC = 10.
    High, intermediate and Low cards remaining, in that order, all equating to True 10

    10,11,5 = true 10
    11,9,6 = true 10
    12,7,7 = true 10
    13,5,8 = true 10
    14,3,9 = true 10
    15,1,10 = true 10

    Now, for tracking intermediates.
    Running Count and True Counts are absolutely automatic for most of us. To keep a number plus minus for intermediates would make your head explode. I don’t count intermediates - I letter them, tantamount to the same thing. However, I don’t use a plus minus on them. Simply maintain a cumulative letter approach, avoids mixing up whether the number of hi, lo, or intermediate.

    Now, think again single deck, utilizing hi lo - 20 high, 16 intermediate, 16 low. Since I’m only concerned with intermediate for now, letters a thru p represent 1 thru 16 cards.

    Now, you’re in A 6 deck shoe, and you’ve reached p. Your second deck equivalent of intermediates is 2a thru p, then 3a.

    When the need arises, and I’m at 1c, that’s 1x16+3= 19 intermediates counted. Divide by decks remaining and compare to your high ratio.

    And btw, if it’s looking shitty, just relax and stay in the lower ramp.
    Last edited by Freightman; 08-26-2020 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Edit true 10 portion, slightly out of whack.

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    either that freighty has too much time on his hands? or that he enjoys playing "pocket pool"?
    Clearly you’ve missed the best part. See if you can reason it out. I’ve spent the last couple if days working on this theory.

    Time to leave Starbucks, head out for lunch, then visit my grandchildren.

  4. #17
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Card Counting Systems measure ratio of hi to low cards. Little attention is paid to intermediate cards. Simulations do not distinguish the impact of intermediate density on results - they are simply a part of the whole.
    That's not quite true. The 8 is not included in the RC, nor the 7 and/or 9 in many level 1 strategies. But, they effect TC's, and therefore index calculations.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    That's not quite true. The 8 is not included in the RC, nor the 7 and/or 9 in many level 1 strategies. But, they effect TC's, and therefore index calculations.
    You’re in the wrong context, possibly my fault. By the way, I need the names of my 2 most ardent supporters, so that I can thank them for their confidence. Just a reminder.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    What is Quality of True Count (use hi lo to most easily describe)
    My own twist. Card Counting Systems measure ratio of hi to low cards. Little attention is paid to intermediate cards. Simulations do not distinguish the impact of intermediate density on results - they are simply a part of the whole. Quality of True Count, aka QTC, measures the ratio of high to intermediate to low cards. That ratio determines QTC and impacts betting levels. Essentially 5 card group (10,J,Q,K,A) is measured against 4 card group (6,7,8,9l and (2,3,4,5). Resulting proportions determine which ramp you should be on. Intermediates are tracked utilizing a letter system.

    How does QTC affect betting in a standard ramp strategy
    A typical ramp would see betting decrease or increase at designated True Counts depending on QTC.

    How does QTC affect betting strategies utilizing a dual ramp system
    Assume 6 deck shoe.
    1. Determine ramp required to beat based on rules and deck pen.
    2. Redo ramp based on what you think you can get away with.
    3. Temper upper ramp if required (usually is) to max house tolerance.
    Illustration
    $25-$200,$250,$300
    $50-$400,$500,$600
    Using mid ramp as an example, do not misconstrue as 20-1 spread, rather as 2 distinctly individual 10-1 spreads. Typical dual ramp systems simply alternate ramps by individual shoes. You are still subject to the same percentage issues pertaining to positive and negative variance. FBM ASC Advanced with Dual Ramp System incorporates both ramps within the same shoe, usually determined by QTC. Deviations from this happen, at players discretion, in lower plus true counts usually in first part of shoe. Consider impact on longevity when increasing bet (lower to upper ramp) on a declining count. Can anyone determine FBM ASC Advanced underlying theory?
    Sorry, your explanations are way too fast for me. I don't get what you mean with your ramps. You speak of "dual ramp", so are you using two ramps, a "lower ramp" and an "upper ramp"? Is

    $25-$200,$250,$300 the lower ramp and
    $50-$400,$500,$600 the upper ramp?

    If yes, what do the last two numbers mean? 25 to 200 means a 1:8 spread, and what is 250 and 300?
    And what is the "mid ramp" then?

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkChip View Post
    Sorry, your explanations are way too fast for me. I don't get what you mean with your ramps. You speak of "dual ramp", so are you using two ramps, a "lower ramp" and an "upper ramp"? Is

    $25-$200,$250,$300 the lower ramp and
    $50-$400,$500,$600 the upper ramp?

    If yes, what do the last two numbers mean? 25 to 200 means a 1:8 spread, and what is 250 and 300?
    And what is the "mid ramp" then?
    My standard rule set that I play, depending on deck pen, spread is either
    25-200 or 25-250 Or 25-300 lower ramp
    50-400 or 50-500 or 50-600 upper ramp

    Mid ramp is 25-250 coupled with 50-500

    Depending on actual shoe, I will switch ramps within the same shoe.

    Finished lunch, time to see grandkids

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Easiest way to demo QTC, think single deck. Use Hi Lo. Think exactly 26 cards left, RC =5, TC = 10.
    High, intermediate and Low cards remaining, in that order, all equating to True 10

    5,20,0 = true 10, do u really want your max bet out here? It is true 10 after all, or is it?
    6,18,1 = true 10
    7,16,2 = true 10
    8,15,3 = true 10
    9,12,4 = true 10
    10,11,5 = true 10
    11,8,6 = true 10
    12,6,7 = true 10
    13,4,8 = true 10
    14,2,9 = true 10
    15,1,10 = true 10
    If 26 cards are left and 26 cards have been played, why is the sum of the first row (5,20,0) only 25 rather than 26?
    The same holds for the second and third row. Whereas e.g. the last row shows a sum of 26.

    If you use the HiLo (intermediate cards are 7,8,9), a deck of 52 cards contains 4 * 3 = 12 intermediate cards and 4 * 5 = 20 low cards and 4*5 = high 20 cards.
    So how can the number of intermediate cards be 20 in the first row?

    Maybe I'm too tired, but I just don't get it...

  9. #22


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkChip View Post
    If 26 cards are left and 26 cards have been played, why is the sum of the first row (5,20,0) only 25 rather than 26?
    The same holds for the second and third row. Whereas e.g. the last row shows a sum of 26.

    Do you use the HiLo (intermediate cards are 7,8,9), a deck of 52 cards contains 4 * 3 = 12 intermediate cards and 4 * 5 = 20 low cards and 4*5 = 20 cards.
    So how can the number of intermediate cards be 20 in the first row?

    Maybe I'm too tired, but I just don't get it...
    Should equal 26 all rows, just getting ahead of myself. My bad. Also, I was thinking intermediate group. I’ll edit it later. Thanks

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkChip View Post
    If 26 cards are left and 26 cards have been played, why is the sum of the first row (5,20,0) only 25 rather than 26?
    The same holds for the second and third row. Whereas e.g. the last row shows a sum of 26.

    If you use the HiLo (intermediate cards are 7,8,9), a deck of 52 cards contains 4 * 3 = 12 intermediate cards and 4 * 5 = 20 low cards and 4*5 = high 20 cards.
    So how can the number of intermediate cards be 20 in the first row?

    Maybe I'm too tired, but I just don't get it...
    True 10 portion edited.
    Hi lo is 505 balanced, but the groupings for QTC are 544. That portion is right.

  11. #24
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    You’re in the wrong context, possibly my fault. By the way, I need the names of my 2 most ardent supporters, so that I can thank them for their confidence. Just a reminder.
    You would need to explain this further. Obviously, if you count more cards, there is more detail. But, you cannot claim that the other cards are not included in calculations in some manner. The only question is the additional gain from more detail.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    You would need to explain this further. Obviously, if you count more cards, there is more detail. But, you cannot claim that the other cards are not included in calculations in some manner. The only question is the additional gain from more detail.
    Of course other cards are calculated. True count is calculated the way true count is always calculated. QTC is the method of evaluating the quality of true count. Post 15 I think demonstrates this quite nicely.

    I recall some years back in chat at BJ21 with a well known poster (Lawyer from Oakland Calif area, some might know whom I’m referring to) where the topic of our conversation was this very point (conception days). This intelligent fellow simply couldn’t get it through his head that concentration Of intermediates, or lack thereof, was a factor in quality of true count. If the true count was there, just blast away - perhaps a factor in why he stopped playing. Perhaps the concept was so new to me that I failed to properly articulate the point.

    Snarky missed it too. Btw, did I remind you to let me know the names of my fervent supporters. I wanted to thank them personally for their ongoing support.

  13. #26


    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Btw, does anybody know if Freightman is related to bjanalyst?

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