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Thread: Opinion of Blackjack Apprenticeship?

  1. #201


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    You are way off.
    First, defining what a "PRO" is is discussing semantics.
    Who the hell cares what your definition (or anybody elses for that matter) of a pro is?
    Sounds to me you want to be labeled a "Pro" and you are bothered by the fact that other people are trying to label themselves under your same category.
    A completely irrelevant and pointless discussion.

    Second, you dont have the slightest clue about how many "pros" are coming from BJA. Neither do I. Nor do you have any idea of the value people participating from those courses are getting for their $2000 investment.

    You may like Colin or BJA or not, but calling it a rip off is just nonsense. The guy knows the trade and is more than capable to teach it to others. Whether you consider it to be expensive or not is a subjective matter and theres a big difference between something expensive and a "rip off".

    And by the way, I know players that learned the game with BJA. all of them are doing very well and have nothing bad to say about colin or bja.
    Way off?
    Yes YOU ARE way off!

    I don't feel any needs to be labelled a "pro" ... what's the point?

    What I'm saying is that a "pro" being in Blackjack, Tennis, Hockey, etc. derives is main revenue from PLAYING THE GAME FOR A LIVING.

    Winning a chess tournament on top of 125 players in 1994 doesn't make one a Professional chess player. Being "in the money" many times a year and living from it IS being a Pro chess player.
    Being retired from work and getting a monthly pension while playing Blackjack for a net win of $8,000/year does not qualify as a Pro BJ player unless you can live like an homeless with $8,000 a year. This, no matter how good or knowledgeable one is.

    And finally, I have absolutely no reason to like or dislike Collin, I don't know him. However, anybody who charges people $2000 for a weekend of "learning" is a fraud. It could be Schlesinger, Snyder, Chang or anyone else. I can tell you one thing I would bet a lot of money on: None of the three I mentioned would ever be pretentious enough to do so.

    EDIT:
    I will add, if Collin is worth $2000 for a weekend, those three I have mentioned should at least charged $10,000
    G Man

  2. #202


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Let me take a shot at being peacemaker or, at the very least, offering my opinion. I'll start off by saying that G.Man is my very good friend whom I have known for a very long time and who is one of the most knowledgeable players that we have. I have also "known" bjarg over the years, as well, and he, too, is a very respected authority on the game. So, the credentials of the two above, who disagree, are not to be disputed or challenged. Here's my take:

    We live (or at least used to--can never be very sure these days!) in a laissez-faire, capitalist, and also caveat emptor society. And, I have always believed, and continue to do so, that something--anything-- is worth what someone will pay for it. Whether that amount is "too much" or "too little" is often a purely subjective matter, especially when we are discussing a service. If Colin's $2,000 were "too much," then I think it would be merely a matter of time before the word got around, from disgruntled participants, that the weekend wasn't worth it, and that they felt that they had been ripped off. Of course, there may be such individuals and reviews, but for the most part, we don't see that happening. So, it is probably more likely that those who have attended have felt, for the most part, that they have gotten their money's worth.

    Some background: As many of you know, in the 1980s, for three years, I ran the NY metropolitan area franchise of the Jerry Patterson Blackjack Clinic. This, of course, was before Jerry decided to go rogue, with his TARGET nonsense, which caused me to immediately sever all ties with him. The course was a five-week program, three hours of instruction one night a week, for which we charged $495 (and sometimes $395, "on sale") for the 15 hours of instruction (plus newsletters plus ongoing "reunions" and access to the teachers, one of whom was me). The class was impeccable and taught basic strategy, a simplified version of Hi-Lo, bet sizing, and casino comportment. Every class finished with a good hour of play at the table, implementing the night's main points. Now, I wasn't sure what $495 in 1982 is worth in today's money, but I researched it, and it is $1,371.

    I'm not sure how many hours Colin crams into his weekend, but it may very well be 15--maybe even more. So, being as objective as I can be, I wouldn't say that $2,000 is an outrageous amount, considering that it is somewhat in line with the price of the course we offered, which taught hundreds of people how to count, some of whom became wonderful friends who have gone on to play on high-stakes teams with million-dollar bankrolls (!)--so I guess the $495 was "worth it"!

    Bottom line: If the course, or Colin, was a fraud or rip-off, it's likely, given the speed with which information is disseminated online nowadays, that it would have disappeared a long time ago. The fact that it hasn't is probably evidence that it has value. Now, whether all the information can be found online, by an ambitious person, somewhat begs the question. As Norm mentioned, people learn differently, and some enjoy being taught. So, to each his own. And the overriding principle, once again, is that anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Or so it seems to me.

    Don

  3. #203


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    False.
    Maybe not now, but there was a time when many of the best players in the world where more than happy to pay the fee to participate in Green Chip.
    Green chip at one time was phenomenal. Not to mention the different private networking boards that took place with green chip members that lived in the same areas of the country.

  4. #204


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Let me take a shot at being peacemaker or, at the very least, offering my opinion. I'll start off by saying that G.Man is my very good friend whom I have known for a very long time and who is one of the most knowledgeable players that we have. I have also "known" bjarg over the years, as well, and he, too, is a very respected authority on the game. So, the credentials of the two above, who disagree, are not to be disputed or challenged. Here's my take:

    We live (or at least used to--can never be very sure these days!) in a laissez-faire, capitalist, and also caveat emptor society. And, I have always believed, and continue to do so, that something--anything-- is worth what someone will pay for it. Whether that amount is "too much" or "too little" is often a purely subjective matter, especially when we are discussing a service. If Colin's $2,000 were "too much," then I think it would be merely a matter of time before the word got around, from disgruntled participants, that the weekend wasn't worth it, and that they felt that they had been ripped off. Of course, there may be such individuals and reviews, but for the most part, we don't see that happening. So, it is probably more likely that those who have attended have felt, for the most part, that they have gotten their money's worth.

    Some background: As many of you know, in the 1980s, for three years, I ran the NY metropolitan area franchise of the Jerry Patterson Blackjack Clinic. This, of course, was before Jerry decided to go rogue, with his TARGET nonsense, which caused me to immediately sever all ties with him. The course was a five-week program, three hours of instruction one night a week, for which we charged $495 (and sometimes $395, "on sale") for the 15 hours of instruction (plus newsletters plus ongoing "reunions" and access to the teachers, one of whom was me). The class was impeccable and taught basic strategy, a simplified version of Hi-Lo, bet sizing, and casino comportment. Every class finished with a good hour of play at the table, implementing the night's main points. Now, I wasn't sure what $495 in 1982 is worth in today's money, but I researched it, and it is $1,371.

    I'm not sure how many hours Colin crams into his weekend, but it may very well be 15--maybe even more. So, being as objective as I can be, I wouldn't say that $2,000 is an outrageous amount, considering that it is somewhat in line with the price of the course we offered, which taught hundreds of people how to count, some of whom became wonderful friends who have gone on to play on high-stakes teams with million-dollar bankrolls (!)--so I guess the $495 was "worth it"!

    Bottom line: If the course, or Colin, was a fraud or rip-off, it's likely, given the speed with which information is disseminated online nowadays, that it would have disappeared a long time ago. The fact that it hasn't is probably evidence that it has value. Now, whether all the information can be found online, by an ambitious person, somewhat begs the question. As Norm mentioned, people learn differently, and some enjoy being taught. So, to each his own. And the overriding principle, once again, is that anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Or so it seems to me.

    Don
    I believe the bootcamp's cost is $3,000, so it's approximately 2.25x the price of your service, and I would argue that learning how to count cards in 1982 was a much higher value proposition than learning how to count cards in 2021.

    I also would tend to disagree with the assertion that the amount of positive reviews of the bootcamp and the fact that there hasn't been a huge amount of disgruntled bootcamp-goers calling Colin a fraud indicates that the bootcamps are good value. They may have "value" in the sense that anything that the market decides has value does indeed have value, but consider the numerous amount of mediocre or inferior products that sell almost solely due to marketing and familiarity in today's economy. At a certain point, things become successful because they became popular, rather than any actual value the product has relative to substitute goods. It may well be that this is the case with the Blackjack Bootcamps. If enough people hear sponsored pros speak highly of BJA and hear stories of BJA members taking $3000 "to the moooooooooon(!)", then they may be inclined to think the product is good even if there are many substitutes of equal or higher value on the market.

  5. #205


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Let me take a shot at being peacemaker or, at the very least, offering my opinion. I'll start off by saying that G.Man is my very good friend whom I have known for a very long time and who is one of the most knowledgeable players that we have. I have also "known" bjarg over the years, as well, and he, too, is a very respected authority on the game. So, the credentials of the two above, who disagree, are not to be disputed or challenged. Here's my take:

    We live (or at least used to--can never be very sure these days!) in a laissez-faire, capitalist, and also caveat emptor society. And, I have always believed, and continue to do so, that something--anything-- is worth what someone will pay for it. Whether that amount is "too much" or "too little" is often a purely subjective matter, especially when we are discussing a service. If Colin's $2,000 were "too much," then I think it would be merely a matter of time before the word got around, from disgruntled participants, that the weekend wasn't worth it, and that they felt that they had been ripped off. Of course, there may be such individuals and reviews, but for the most part, we don't see that happening. So, it is probably more likely that those who have attended have felt, for the most part, that they have gotten their money's worth.

    Some background: As many of you know, in the 1980s, for three years, I ran the NY metropolitan area franchise of the Jerry Patterson Blackjack Clinic. This, of course, was before Jerry decided to go rogue, with his TARGET nonsense, which caused me to immediately sever all ties with him. The course was a five-week program, three hours of instruction one night a week, for which we charged $495 (and sometimes $395, "on sale") for the 15 hours of instruction (plus newsletters plus ongoing "reunions" and access to the teachers, one of whom was me). The class was impeccable and taught basic strategy, a simplified version of Hi-Lo, bet sizing, and casino comportment. Every class finished with a good hour of play at the table, implementing the night's main points. Now, I wasn't sure what $495 in 1982 is worth in today's money, but I researched it, and it is $1,371.

    I'm not sure how many hours Colin crams into his weekend, but it may very well be 15--maybe even more. So, being as objective as I can be, I wouldn't say that $2,000 is an outrageous amount, considering that it is somewhat in line with the price of the course we offered, which taught hundreds of people how to count, some of whom became wonderful friends who have gone on to play on high-stakes teams with million-dollar bankrolls (!)--so I guess the $495 was "worth it"!

    Bottom line: If the course, or Colin, was a fraud or rip-off, it's likely, given the speed with which information is disseminated online nowadays, that it would have disappeared a long time ago. The fact that it hasn't is probably evidence that it has value. Now, whether all the information can be found online, by an ambitious person, somewhat begs the question. As Norm mentioned, people learn differently, and some enjoy being taught. So, to each his own. And the overriding principle, once again, is that anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Or so it seems to me.

    Don
    Thank you for that Don. I know who GMan is and I have nothing but respect for him. I also agree he is among the most knowleadgable active posters around. So that's definitely not in dispute.

    I do think he is off in his take of BJA though. There's a very big gap between something that might be considered expensive and a "rip off", or at least for me.

    In my opinion, $2000 is not expensive at all for someone who is seriously commited to learning and to his future career as an AP. If succesful, that's a very small investment considering what even a mid level part-time AP can make playing this game.

  6. #206


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    I tend to agree with houyi.

    While Don's argument from capitalist is 100% true in a competitive market, I think it's not exactly what we are facing here. If you find that jacket too highly priced, just go across the street and buy the same one for half the price. If many customers are doing it, the high price won't sell and it will go down while the low price will be slowly upgraded and somewhere a balance point will be reached, fine!

    It's of common knowledge and we have absolutely no reason to doubt it, that Collin and his teams won in the 7 figures from casinos playing Blackjack. These million dollars are high on the list for advertisement purpose. I mean, who would pay $2000 or $3000 to get lessons from a Blackjack pro who never won a dime but knows his stuff...?

    So, for the newbie who wants to learn from the bests or what he believes to be the bests, what's left between Collin and nothing? This is not capitalism, it's some sort of a monopoly. The choice is, you pay for the bootcamp or you buy books, many books and great books. The second choice is for me by far preferable.

    In two or three days, one cannot learn more than the basics of making money at Blackjack. Learning the basic strategy, how to count (running count then true count), index plays, etc. Probably some general rules on spreads to beat different number of decks and other general rules for how many units a bankroll should have to provide x% RoR in 2, 6 and 8 deck games with a few sets of rules, etc.

    For a fraction of the price you can get great books, CVData and everything you need to learn. If you're so much incline to hear stories from the trenches, listen to GWAE podcasts or buy Munchkin's book Gambling Wizards. We emphasize here on the bootcamp price, but if it was only it... Remember, if I just want to know "of what they are made" and would like to join the Forum, it's $250/year !!

    In the end, maybe these words are too harsh, "rip off" and "fraud" but I cannot go lower than saying GREATLY OVERPRICED.

    Ask yourself this question: What would be worth a weekend bootcamp to learn Blackjack if it was given by John Chang from MIT ?
    For a newbie, it would be worth very little cause they wouldn't learn more and a lot less I would say than they would learn in a combine reading of; Wong ProBJ, Blaine BJ Blueprint and Don's BJA3.
    For a seasoned player? You would pay $5000 to spend 3 entire days with John, trust me! You would learn things that are nowhere in print.

    So, unless Collin is a "Chang like genius" I will never pay $250 to participate in this type of forum.

    EDIT: My post went on after yours bjarg. Just so you know, I have great respect for you too!
    G Man

  7. #207


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    In the end, maybe these words are too harsh, "rip off" and "fraud" but I cannot go lower than saying GREATLY OVERPRICED.
    Glad we can at least find common ground there.

    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    What would be worth a weekend bootcamp to learn Blackjack if it was given by John Chang from MIT ?
    I'm guessing you would probably know best

  8. #208


    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    My take
    you don’t need Colin. You need dedication, time, seasoning (which means being prepared to lose a few bucks), a den, 6 casino decks of cards, each deck with each card marked with card value, good books such as Wongs Prof BJ and Snyder’s Blackbelt in Blackjack (BJA3 can come later) and time to play and likely a few items I’ve missed out on.

  9. #209


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Where I disagree with Don is that those who fail cannot go to the forum and post their failures. Those with regrets about quitting careers or college to play BAj full time cannot share their regrets. Colin monitors and bans people on his forums quickly.

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