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Thread: For HL player who refuses to switch to KO use 5m9c as a side count to HL

  1. #79


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    To all
    Before someone says that’s bullshit and can’t be done - it can be done. Someone forged my handle years ago on BJ21. Board Admins generally avoid that crap, as it can be tough to find out who the guilty douchebag is.

    BJAnalyst
    For ease of use and power, consider FBM ASC Advanced.
    Actually, just looking at the post in question, it’s easily editable by anyone when replying to a post. Whoever posted the post in question is likely the guilty douchebag.

    That sort of shit is low, and action requires a consistency by board admin which is not always there.

  2. #80


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJC View Post
    Did Gronberg do the sims in CVdata? How did he add in the extra 5m9c? I'm guessing he had to add a compositional index for the adjustments?
    I have my own software.

  3. #81


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    Originally Posted by BJC
    Did Gronberg do the sims in CVdata? How did he add in the extra 5m9c? I'm guessing he had to add a compositional index for the adjustments?


    Gronbog never did any sims on HL w 5m9c. Gronbog did sims on HL w 7m9c

    No sims were ever done on HL w 5m9c.

    Another reader earlier in this post said he was going to do sims

    I already told you the results.

    HL w 5m9c will be HL w ASC and tie Wong's Halves.

    The HL w 5m9c improved over HL will probably close the SCORE gap between HL and HO2 w ASC by 50%.

    Besides improving power, the HL w 5m9c gives some limited cover play where you are actually making the correct play but the casino, using the HL to track you, will consider that you made a mistake.

    There are not that many cover plays with HL w 5m9c but I will mention a few.

    Your BE is improved so near the end of the shoe, if 5m9c is negative, you may have a small bet out when HL says should should have a big bet or if 5m9c is positive you may have a big bet out where HL says you should be betting small.

    And then there is standing on hard 16 v 7 when 5m9c >= 2.5*dr or if HL >= 4*dr then 5m9c >= 2*dr.

    But there is no where near the number of deviations from HL when KO w AA89mTc and 5m9c is used - you would be making correct plays where someone using the HL will think you made a mistake, so that is also valuable cover.

    My friend just got kicked out of the great game I play with Super 4 and LL, at least for a while. Maybe he can go back net month.

    He uses the HL and has refused for over a year to even switch to the KO never mind including any of my side counts with the KO,

    This has been the experience I had with every counter I ever met. They all use the HL and steadfastly refuse to switch to any other count system.

    The HL is not a good primary count to start with to add side counts to get maximum SCORE, the KO is the best primary count to use to add side counts to.

    But since the vast majority of players are HL then I conceded to them and just wanted to add a very simple side count to the HL to help improve the HL. That is why I suggested adding 5m9c to the HL.

    The casino thinks I am an idiot and do not bother me because of all of my strange plays according to the HL, which are actually correct.

    And the Super 4 and LL make extra cover.

    Consider LL bet for example.

    With the HL you bet LL when tc(HL) >= 6.5. The only time you max out on the HL bet is when your maximum blackjack bet is out. You never even bet the LL when tc(HL) < 6.5. You don't think that stands out like a red flag.

    So now the casinos not only have your bet spread to track you but they also see you only play the LL when tc(HL) is large and your max bet is out and otherwise you do not play LL. If you have a sharp pit boss, your goose is cooked.

    The Ten count should be used for LL.

    HL has a Ten count (and insurance) efficiency of 76%.

    Using Tc = perfect Ten count = KO + AA89mTc the Ten count (and insurance) efficiency is 100%.

    So using the Tc there are times that I may be playing the LL with a very low tc(HL) and there are times I may not be playing LL with a very high tc(HL). The casino has no idea what is going on if they were trying to track my play and would just consider me an ordinary loser.

    So the casinos use the HL to see if you are a counter.

    The HL is powerful and simple and gets you the money but the problem it is too simple. So simple that anyone can use it including the casino.

    And don't think for a minute that the casino is not aware of the Illustrious 18. They look mainly at bet spread but may pick a few deviations of the I18 to verify their suspicions.

    I remembering seeing a YouTube video with Don Johnson who won millions from the casinos.

    When he was asked about counters, he said a monkey can count cards. He was referring to the HL.

    So you have a double edge sword with the HL.

    It is powerful and nice and easy for you to use but it is also nice and easy for the casinos to use.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-13-2020 at 04:47 PM.

  4. #82


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Freightman - you could self-publish a book, sell it on amazon and give yourself a 5 star review like some other authors around here.
    That is fraudulent! That's a reason why I don't go off of reviews and ratings. Because it can be manipulated.

  5. #83


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    BJAnalyst said
    “ The casinos use the HL to see if you are a counter. ”

    Not necessarily. You can be counted down by the pit or EITS. Probably, most stores will do this. Some stores, and I don’t know the proportion, will use more sophisticated software to calculate EOR’s card by card. It will determine best play well beyond I18 Deviations, and will correlate bet spread to actual advantage. True threats can usually be identified. It’s my understanding, subject to confirmation, that stores utilizing this expensive software will likely reside in lower tax paying states.

    Even sophisticated systems, such as FBM ASC Advanced are not immune. However, FBM ASC Advanced when used with a dual ramp system, can mask card counting ability in the lower plus and minus true counts, but tougher to mask in the higher true counts.

  6. #84


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    BJAnalyst said
    “ The casinos use the HL to see if you are a counter. ”

    Not necessarily. You can be counted down by the pit or EITS. Probably, most stores will do this. Some stores, and I don’t know the proportion, will use more sophisticated software to calculate EOR’s card by card. It will determine best play well beyond I18 Deviations, and will correlate bet spread to actual advantage. True threats can usually be identified. It’s my understanding, subject to confirmation, that stores utilizing this expensive software will likely reside in lower tax paying states.

    Even sophisticated systems, such as FBM ASC Advanced are not immune. However, FBM ASC Advanced when used with a dual ramp system, can mask card counting ability in the lower plus and minus true counts, but tougher to mask in the higher true counts.
    Using the verbiage “calculating eors card by card” is not the best explanation. It’s more accurate to say that exact Card proportions and their effect on Quality of True Count Is calculated etc etc.

  7. #85


    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    BJAnalyst said
    “ The casinos use the HL to see if you are a counter. ”

    Not necessarily. You can be counted down by the pit or EITS. Probably, most stores will do this. Some stores, and I don’t know the proportion, will use more sophisticated software to calculate EOR’s card by card.
    I did a search on "how casinos catch card counters".

    None of them specify the card counting system used by the casino if they review the tapes to see if you are a card counter except to say that they employ former card counters. Former card counters would use the HL, they are not a computer.

    I said the casinos would use the HL to review the tapes to see if you are counting. I do not have proof of this but it just makes sense to me.

    The casino should assume if you are a card counter, then you are using the HL which is an excellent assumption. I mentioned to you that every single counter I meet used the HL and steadfastly refused to switch to any other count system.

    Catch the counters using their favorite system which is the HL.

    See how their play coordinated with the correct HL play, not with some theoretically perfect play.

    The reason it make sense is that the vast majority of counters use the HL and blackjack teams use the HL. The HL has extensive literature published about it and has been analyzed to death.

    So if the casino is going to review tapes to see if you are a counter it makes sense they would review it with the HL since that is what most counters use.

    To review it with sophisticated software calculating the precise playing strategy changes and betting makes no sense because counters are not computers, counters use the HL. So using the exact plays to try to catch a player using the HL they would find the errors in the HL system and not prove that the player was counting.

    Again, I am not privy to casino security and maybe you know something that I do not but I think the HL is easy for the casino to use and they will catch the majority of card counters with the HL since that is what most of the card counters use.

    Again that is my common sense opinion and I do not know what surveillance actually uses.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-13-2020 at 10:43 PM.

  8. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    I did a search on "how casinos catch card counters".

    None of them specify the card counting system used by the casino if they review the tapes to see if you are a card counter except to say that they employ former card counters. Former card counters would use the HL, they are not a computer.

    I said the casinos would use the HL to review the tapes to see if you are counting. I do not have proof of this but it just makes sense to me.

    The casino should assume if you are a card counter, then you are using the HL which is an excellent assumption. I mentioned to you that every single counter I meet used the HL and steadfastly refused to switch to any other count system.

    Catch the counters using their favorite system which is the HL.

    See how their play coordinated with the correct HL play, not with some theoretically perfect play.

    The reason it make sense is that the vast majority of counters use the HL and blackjack teams use the HL. The HL has extensive literature published about it and has been analyzed to death.

    So if the casino is going to review tapes to see if you are a counter it makes sense they would review it with the HL since that is what most counters use.

    To review it with sophisticated software calculating the precise playing strategy changes and betting makes no sense because counters are not computers, counters use the HL. So using the exact plays to try to catch a player using the HL they would find the errors in the HL system and not prove that the player was counting.

    Again, I am not privy to casino security and maybe you know something that I do not but I think the HL is easy for the casino to use and they will catch the majority of card counters with the HL since that is what most of the card counters use.

    Again that is my common sense opinion and I do not know what surveillance actually uses.

    You don't even need to use Hi Lo to catch a counter; you can easily use any unbalanced count and simply note the differences in the running count when the suspected counter raised bets. Or you could use Hi Lo without TC conversion; you don't need a TC to see variance in bet size that is associated with RC and the variance will be there whether or not a counter is using a balanced or unbalanced count. Granted there will not be 100% correlation between increased bet sizes when comparing TC and RC, or between different balanced counts or different unbalanced counts. All a casino employee needs to do is recognize that bets increase consistently with increases in RC.

  9. #87


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wave View Post
    All a casino employee needs to do is recognize that bets increase consistently with increases in RC.
    I read a few articles on the Internet and talked to my friend and here were the suggestions to help avoid being backed off.

    1. If the table minimum is $15, for example, start out with at $25 or even $50 bet off the top of the shoe just for the first hand.

    2. Deliberately make a horrendous play that will grab the attention of the pit boss and other players will complain about. For example, with your minimum bet out, spilt Tens against dealer's 7, 8, 9, Ten or Ace. Other players will probably howl about this and the dealer may even call out splitting Tens. Just doing this once or twice should help label you as a idiot. If you want to make a wrong play make a very terrible play like I mentioned above so the casino knows about it. You do not want to make a wrong play that no one notices and it ends up costing you money for nothing.

    3. It was suggested in the article, that if the shoe goes hot, then deliberately ask for a marker saying loudly that this a terrible shoe, I am leaving, I will come back next shoe. So if they review the tapes they would see you are getting up at a high positive count shoe and figure you were just a superstitious player. The article says do not do this often as it is very costly. Just do this once should be enough the article said.

    So what do you think of those suggestions?

    Do you have any additional suggestions of your own?
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2020 at 11:26 AM.

  10. #88


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    Both wave and BJAnalyst missed the point. The sophisticated software alluded to is not to determine if you’re a counter, but rather if you are a threat as a counter.

    Just because one counts doesn’t mean that one is a threat.

  11. #89


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Both wave and BJAnalyst missed the point. The sophisticated software alluded to is not to determine if you’re a counter, but rather if you are a threat as a counter.

    Just because one counts doesn’t mean that one is a threat.
    +1000! These guys really believe that casinos would like to ban every player that counts....and they are supposed to be pros. Personally, I believe that IF all how to count in Blackjack books, forums, you-tube and more were banned, the casinos would lobby to remove the ban.

  12. #90


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    These guys really believe that casinos would like to ban every player that counts.
    Some do. Some casinos also bar players who move their money around, but aren't counting.

  13. #91


    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Both wave and BJAnalyst missed the point. The sophisticated software alluded to is not to determine if you’re a counter, but rather if you are a threat as a counter.

    Just because one counts doesn’t mean that one is a threat.
    I know virtually nothing on the internal working of casino surveillance. When I googled "how do casinos catch counters" I did not find any articles about sophisticated software to evaluate if a counter is actually playing with an edge. Without sophisticated software then the casinos would most likely uses the HL.

    If you have a link to any articles explaining this software that casinos use to evaluate counters, then please post the link in this thread.

    Also with the small sample size of a couple of shoes, even with sophisticated software, how could the casinos come to a definite conclusion on the strength of your play?

    I would think they most look at bet spread and maybe some of the I18 to see if you are playing perfect HL blackjack. That is what I think and that is how my friend was caught a few days ago who plays the HL.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2020 at 02:51 PM.

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