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Thread: Probably for the disadvantage forum...

  1. #1


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    Probably for the disadvantage forum...


  2. #2


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    Would you mind explaining all of this in a short synopsis?

  3. #3


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    Is this the MD3?

  4. #4
    Senior Member JBourne's Avatar
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    It's a patent describing the novel functions of an ASM. In particular, it describes the ability to effectively randomize a deck, and the ability to return the deck to sorted "factory" order. To accomplish this, the device is able to optically detect the rank and suit of every card, the software is able to sequence the cards according to an algorithm, and the mechanism is able to quickly reorder the cards.

    This is the seed of an active conspiracy theory that this functionality is being used to cheat players by creating a non-randomized shoe, one that has been stacked to disadvantage the player more than a randomized shoe. I won't go into the details, but I do have a few opinions:
    1) This would be casino cheating. Any casino doing this would be risking their gaming license and exposing themselves to litigation.
    2) The manufacturer could not create or promote any software mode (public or hidden) to perform this function without exposing themselves to litigation due to "strict liability".
    3) The manufacturer of the ASM already has dominant market share and a very clear value proposition to the casino. This function would have no value to them if they could not promote it for the purpose of increasing revenue.
    4) Is it possible that bad actors could hack an ASM to implement their own software? If so, this would be a limited criminal enterprise with very clear risks to any casinos or individuals who would be caught. The more broadly this would be implemented, the more likely it someone would be exposed.
    5) Blackjack and card counting results in lots of variance. Cards can come out in crazy sequences more often than "probability" might seem to imply. Losing can be hard to deal with. I'm sure it is tempting to blame variance on something more insidious, particularly while losing.
    6) Blackjack card counting that is less than perfect results in greater variance and worst results over time. Accepting your own role in the results can be hard for some people.


    I'm assuming that Zee was trying to bait a conversation about this theory once again to explain his recent bad results as a local casino who appears to now being giving him a free shot, after previously heating him up, yet is now laughing at him while he loses. I'm also assuming he thinks that bringing this up over and over again will somehow lead to one of us suddenly revealing the truth and validate his worst fears. But he probably doesn't want to be heckled again, so he just teases the topic in order to foment the conversation.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBourne View Post
    It's a patent describing the novel functions of an ASM. In particular, it describes the ability to effectively randomize a deck, and the ability to return the deck to sorted "factory" order. To accomplish this, the device is able to optically detect the rank and suit of every card, the software is able to sequence the cards according to an algorithm, and the mechanism is able to quickly reorder the cards.

    This is the seed of an active conspiracy theory that this functionality is being used to cheat players by creating a non-randomized shoe, one that has been stacked to disadvantage the player more than a randomized shoe. I won't go into the details, but I do have a few opinions:
    1) This would be casino cheating. Any casino doing this would be risking their gaming license and exposing themselves to litigation.
    2) The manufacturer could not create or promote any software mode (public or hidden) to perform this function without exposing themselves to litigation due to "strict liability".
    3) The manufacturer of the ASM already has dominant market share and a very clear value proposition to the casino. This function would have no value to them if they could not promote it for the purpose of increasing revenue.
    4) Is it possible that bad actors could hack an ASM to implement their own software? If so, this would be a limited criminal enterprise with very clear risks to any casinos or individuals who would be caught. The more broadly this would be implemented, the more likely it someone would be exposed.
    5) Blackjack and card counting results in lots of variance. Cards can come out in crazy sequences more often than "probability" might seem to imply. Losing can be hard to deal with. I'm sure it is tempting to blame variance on something more insidious, particularly while losing.
    6) Blackjack card counting that is less than perfect results in greater variance and worst results over time. Accepting your own role in the results can be hard for some people.


    I'm assuming that Zee was trying to bait a conversation about this theory once again to explain his recent bad results as a local casino who appears to now being giving him a free shot, after previously heating him up, yet is now laughing at him while he loses. I'm also assuming he thinks that bringing this up over and over again will somehow lead to one of us suddenly revealing the truth and validate his worst fears. But he probably doesn't want to be heckled again, so he just teases the topic in order to foment the conversation.
    I agree with everything you have written. The ability to sequence the cards to an algorithm does exist. Whether .00001% of casinos do it is irrelevant. It’s probably true that in 99.999% of Ed , it’s just variance. Pit guys, dealers would not need to be in on it IF a casino is doing it. Casinos and regulatory bodies are many and one or more may be convinced that as long as odds against ploppy or casinos are not altered, such an algorithm is permissible.

    Based upon my records, over a year plus, the least success I have is with the deepest penetration deck games, plus pit attitude changes, I have concluded one is doing something.

    My only reason for posting it is to show that it can be done.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    I agree with everything you have written. The ability to sequence the cards to an algorithm does exist. Whether .00001% of casinos do it is irrelevant. It’s probably true that in 99.999% of Ed , it’s just variance. Pit guys, dealers would not need to be in on it IF a casino is doing it. Casinos and regulatory bodies are many and one or more may be convinced that as long as odds against ploppy or casinos are not altered, such an algorithm is permissible.

    Based upon my records, over a year plus, the least success I have is with the deepest penetration deck games, plus pit attitude changes, I have concluded one is doing something.

    My only reason for posting it is to show that it can be done.
    Yep. Put it in yellow.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    Yep. Put it in yellow.
    Thanks for the advice, will try to remember.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Is this the MD3?
    Near the end of 0008 section, it said implemented in ShuffleMaster products DECK MATE, MD2 and MD3.

  9. #9
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    Here is a picture of a brand new MD3 from a just opened casino you can read the LCD screen...I see no option for beast mode


    !MD3.jpg
    Last edited by Speedy99; 03-28-2020 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #10


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    I believe to never let your guard down. I would love to try and beat any preprogrammed cheaters.
    This is why you need to develop another move or 5. That way you smoke em somehow. If they want to cheat at 5 different games they’ll get caught eventually. Too easy.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bricklayer View Post
    I believe to never let your guard down. I would love to try and beat any preprogrammed cheaters.
    I like your attitude, and when you do finally find one at first you may be frustrated with all the two-card 20 pushes that you see, and all those high count doubles going down, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bricklayer View Post
    This is why you need to develop another move or 5. That way you smoke em somehow.
    Just one possible counterplay, you should take a real good look at all the various side bets and then you may more than evened out the crookedness. My playing time is now limited and I try to avoid playing against ASM when I can as I do not trust them.
    Last edited by BoSox; 03-28-2020 at 05:24 PM.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Thanks for the advice, will try to remember.
    It wasn't the OP that convinced me, it was the part I bolded. Your tiny sample size of playing shoe games and your lack of understanding of them was the clincher.

    Do me a favor. Get 8 standard decks and wash them face down on a table for about 5 minutes. After that, pile them up, still face down (don't look at them), into a tall stack. Now flip the stack over and fan them all out. Do this a bunch of times and not just once. You'll find a lot instances where many of the same 'plus', 'zero', 'minus' cards are right next to each other.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by JBourne View Post
    It's a patent describing the novel functions of an ASM. In particular, it describes the ability to effectively randomize a deck, and the ability to return the deck to sorted "factory" order. To accomplish this, the device is able to optically detect the rank and suit of every card, the software is able to sequence the cards according to an algorithm, and the mechanism is able to quickly reorder the cards.

    This is the seed of an active conspiracy theory that this functionality is being used to cheat players by creating a non-randomized shoe, one that has been stacked to disadvantage the player more than a randomized shoe. I won't go into the details, but I do have a few opinions:
    1) This would be casino cheating. Any casino doing this would be risking their gaming license and exposing themselves to litigation.
    2) The manufacturer could not create or promote any software mode (public or hidden) to perform this function without exposing themselves to litigation due to "strict liability".
    3) The manufacturer of the ASM already has dominant market share and a very clear value proposition to the casino. This function would have no value to them if they could not promote it for the purpose of increasing revenue.
    4) Is it possible that bad actors could hack an ASM to implement their own software? If so, this would be a limited criminal enterprise with very clear risks to any casinos or individuals who would be caught. The more broadly this would be implemented, the more likely it someone would be exposed.
    5) Blackjack and card counting results in lots of variance. Cards can come out in crazy sequences more often than "probability" might seem to imply. Losing can be hard to deal with. I'm sure it is tempting to blame variance on something more insidious, particularly while losing.
    6) Blackjack card counting that is less than perfect results in greater variance and worst results over time. Accepting your own role in the results can be hard for some people.


    I'm assuming that Zee was trying to bait a conversation about this theory once again to explain his recent bad results as a local casino who appears to now being giving him a free shot, after previously heating him up, yet is now laughing at him while he loses. I'm also assuming he thinks that bringing this up over and over again will somehow lead to one of us suddenly revealing the truth and validate his worst fears. But he probably doesn't want to be heckled again, so he just teases the topic in order to foment the conversation.

    well put, totally in agreeement.

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