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Thread: Hard 16 vs 10, no surrender H17

  1. #14


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    Thanks for the response everyone! I really appreciate it.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    And, yes, from the practical standpoint, it's refreshing to know that whether you hit or stand on 16 v. 10 at RC = exactly 0, won't be worth two hot dogs, ... (Extra credit for those of you who know where to go to finish the sentence!!)

    Don
    On the boardwalk of Atlantic City.

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Interesting thread. As for multi card 16’s, for counters, stand in positive counts - except when 1 of those 3 or more cards is a 6. But of course, you knew that.
    @ Freight: I will, of course, not be offended by any beratement for asking this due to my ignorance on this matter, but getting this correct is more important to me than receiving any scorn or ridicule.

    In your quote above, I assume you meant stand in positive running counts. You know what happens when one assumes, so please confirm whether my assumption is correct.

    Additionally, I obviously did not know the reference you made regarding holding a 6 in a >2 card 16, so could you please provide a reference or source? I'd like to read the article/book where that is found. If it's Don's BJA, I will be very embarassed for missing it, but (again) getting this correct is more important to me than being embarassed.

    Thank you in advance.

  4. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Interesting thread. As for multi card 16’s, for counters, stand in positive counts - except when 1 of those 3 or more cards is a 6. But of course, you knew that.
    I disagree. For counters, the composition of the hand is irrelevant. Would you really hit a multi card 16 vs T at a positive count because contains a 6? This sounds like composition dependent basic strategy which is only weakly correlated to counting.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Not that you need my "blessing," but everything said by everyone above is correct.
    While I may have reached the point where needing your blessing is not always necessary, I think that I can speak for many here when I say that both confirmation and correction from you carry a lot of weight and are always appreciated.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    I disagree. For counters, the composition of the hand is irrelevant. Would you really hit a multi card 16 vs T at a positive count because contains a 6? This sounds like composition dependent basic strategy which is only weakly correlated to counting.
    Straight from Don. It would be a very negligible alley, but it’s there. There’s a couple of references
    Buried here - not sure I can find them. He can certainly advise if im right or wrong.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wave View Post
    @ Freight: I will, of course, not be offended by any beratement for asking this due to my ignorance on this matter, but getting this correct is more important to me than receiving any scorn or ridicule.

    In your quote above, I assume you meant stand in positive running counts. You know what happens when one assumes, so please confirm whether my assumption is correct.

    Additionally, I obviously did not know the reference you made regarding holding a 6 in a >2 card 16, so could you please provide a reference or source? I'd like to read the article/book where that is found. If it's Don's BJA, I will be very embarassed for missing it, but (again) getting this correct is more important to me than being embarassed.

    Thank you in advance.
    Well, from 1 arrogant ass to another, I don’t think the question is silly at all. To clarify, paraphrased and abbreviated, hit 2 card 16 at neg RC, stand 0 or above. In 3 card 16, generally stand, but hitting is correct in a positive count, if one of the 3 cards is a 6. It’s slight.

    I recall Don challenging me, which wasn’t difficult, as to why that would be correct. I’ll see if I can find at least 1 of the references alluded to from posts that were months, if not years apart. I doubt that it’s in BJA.

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    So, are you saying I should hit on these or stay?

    When I play it says H, on a 16VA, 16v9, but 16v19 stand.

    Thanks!
    GoalSeeker,

    16v19 should be Hit if Surrender is not available. Standing on 16v19 is a guaranteed loser. ;-)

    Dog Hand

  9. #22


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    Norm
    Is there any way to search for posts between 2 posters, specifically me to Don or Don to me.

  10. #23


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    The other thread would mention s9mething about count

    Thread 16 v 10, following post by Don

    10,4,2; 10,3,3; 9,7; 9,4,3; 9,5,2; 8,4,4; 8,5,3; 8,6,2;
    Since this is the first hand of the deck, and you are alone, BS tells you to hit 10,6 or 9,7. You don't need a count system for that, but, since the RCs would be negative, in any event, the counts would tell you to hit also.

    For the three-card hands, all of the point counts would tell you to stand, because all the RCs would be positive. And that would be correct for six of the seven hands you give. Unfortunately, for 8,6,2 vs. T, your count would tell you to stand, but, for the first hand of the deck, the proper play is to hit. In fact, the play isn't even close. You're more than two percent better hitting that hand than standing, so this is a case where the count tells you to do the wrong thing.

    Don

    The rest of that thread is worth reading, including the philosophical post below, worthy of a Talmudic discussion

    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Just look to basic strategy which says hit, think about Wong and 3 card 16's , which say stay - so, hit 2 card 16, stand 3 card 16, then, first hand or not, heads up or not, what's RC before you make your decision and make the best index hit it stand decision.

    Further philosophical direction

    I shovelled the sidewalk last week (fat chance), and after doing so I sat down and had a glass of wine. The day was really quite beautiful, and the drink facilitated some deep thinking.

    My wife walked by and asked me what I was doing, and I said, "Nothing." The reason I said "nothing" instead of saying "just thinking" is because she then would have asked, "About what?" At that point I would have had to explain that men are deep thinkers about various topics, which would lead to other questions.

    Finally, I pondered an age old question: "Is giving birth more painful than getting kicked in the nuts?"

    Women always maintain that giving birth is way more painful than a guy getting kicked in the nuts, but how could they know?

    Well, after another glass of wine, and some more heavy deductive thinking, I have come up with an answer to that question. Getting kicked in the nuts is more painful than having a baby, and even though I obviously couldn't really know, here is the reason for my conclusion. A year or so after giving birth, a woman will often say, "It might be nice to have another child."

    On the other hand, you never hear a guy say, "You know, I think I would like another kick in the nuts."
    I rest my case. Time for another wine and then, maybe a nap.

    See first 2 lines. Then reflect on the philosophical direction provided and consider the newly presented ball count for ace side count.

  11. #24


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Well, from 1 arrogant ass to another, I don’t think the question is silly at all. To clarify, paraphrased and abbreviated, hit 2 card 16 at neg RC, stand 0 or above. In 3 card 16, generally stand, but hitting is correct in a positive count, if one of the 3 cards is a 6. It’s slight.
    This makes no sense to me at all. These kinds of adjustments apply to basic strategy players because they are accurate off the top of the shoe. I don't know if this one is accurate or not. In the absence of other information, the composition of your hand implies enough about the composition of the remaining cards to warrant a change in strategy.

    However, when counting, the composition of the cards which have been dealt and hence of those which remain is represented by the running count. What difference does it make if there is a 6 in your hand vs in some else's hand or even dealt during the previous round? These all represent the same depletion of a 6 from the remaining cards.

    Once again. The running count is +10 with 2 decks remaining to play. Do you really believe that the presence of a 6 in your multi card 16 vs T is enough to negate the sizeable advantage of standing over hitting?

    I'm certain that you're mistakenly applying a composition dependent basic strategy rule of thumb to card counting.

  12. #25


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    I just read the transcription of the other thread. As I suspected, the first sentence is "Since this is the first hand of the deck, and you are alone". Nothing in that post implies that these hands should be hit against the recommendation provided by your counting system when it's no longer the first hand of the shoe or in the presence of other players.

    I'm also wondering if this might only be a single deck issue.
    Last edited by Gronbog; 02-14-2020 at 12:24 PM.

  13. #26


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    If I get around to it, I’ll search out the other thread

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