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Thread: Hard 16 vs 10, no surrender H17

  1. #1


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    Hard 16 vs 10, no surrender H17

    Hello Blackjack community!

    I apologize for the newbie question. But following basic strategy, with a running count = 0, no surrender, H7...

    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?

    If you need more info on how I am seeing it: I am following Colin Jones strategy, playing the flashcard app, H17, setting the count = 0 (practice my basic) and letting there be no surrender.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!

  2. #2


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    I heard from a video with Semyon Dukach that no matter what the count is, if you don't see any 5's on the table then its always better to hit. If someone can elaborate more on that, would appreciate it.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?
    When the dealer shows an upcard of 7,8,9, or any 10 value card, it does not matter what the house rule is regarding H/S on soft 17.

  4. #4


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    So, are you saying I should hit on these or stay?

    When I play it says H, on a 16VA, 16v9, but 16v19 stand.

    Thanks!

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    Hello Blackjack community!

    I apologize for the newbie question. But following basic strategy, with a running count = 0, no surrender, H7...

    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?

    If you need more info on how I am seeing it: I am following Colin Jones strategy, playing the flashcard app, H17, setting the count = 0 (practice my basic) and letting there be no surrender.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!
    For you to be dealt 16 vs 10 (not 8,8), and the RC is now 0, the RC would've been "plus" before cards are dealt. If if was "0" before cards dealt, and you get the same scenario, the RC is now "minus." That's probably why the discrepancy.

  6. #6


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    The value of the count before the hand is dealt is irrelevant. Only the count at the time of the decision matters.

    For HiLo, which is what BJA uses, the index to stand is zero. So for a running coint of zero you should stand. I did notice while reading Colin's book that BJA recommends hitting when the running count is zero. I don't know what research he has done in order to determine this. My own research supports standing.

    Dukach's suggestion to look at the number of 5s on the table is a weak form of localized card counting. If you are using an actual card counting system, then you have more accurate information and should follow it. A similar rule of thumb for basic strategy players is to hit a 2 card 16 vs T and stand on a multi card 16. This is also a weak form of localized card counting which is trumped by actual card counting.

  7. #7


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    One other thing. H17 or S17 is irrelevant here as it is impossible for the dealer to get a soft 17 with a 10 up.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    Hello Blackjack community!

    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?

    If you need more info on how I am seeing it: I am following Colin Jones strategy, playing the flashcard app, H17, setting the count = 0 (practice my basic) and letting there be no surrender.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!
    You are suffering from the inconsistency between different authors and instructions. I went through the exact same thing.

    BJ Apprenticeship App:
    The chart instructions are to DEVIATE at any positive running count. To interpret this correctly for 16 vs. 10 you would hit per BS when RC = 0 and stand (deviate) when RC > 0. This is how the app is programmed, and you will be conditioned to do it this way. This is slightly different than how the charts work in CV. For CV, the charts and TC calculation rules for HL are based on the methodology described by Stanford Wong in Professional Blackjack. The index is 0 for that play. the index means the TC at which you stand. This means that for RC = 0 you should stand. So for RC = 0 they do not match.

    You will find this same type of interpretation error exists for all the negative indices in the BJ Apprenticeship charts. But then again, they don't have many negative indices so, so 16 vs. 10 is by far the most common one to deal with. 13 vs. 2 and some of the surrender indices are the others. Some other books that refer to HL deviations also misinterpret this.

    CV Blackjack:
    You also have to understand if you are flooring or truncating the TC. The original set of HL indices published by Wong are represented in the 'Complete HiLo' playing strategy in CV, which is based on floored indices. The revised set of HL indices published by Wong are represented in the 'Basic HiLo' playing strategy in CV, which is based on truncated indices.

    This can create additional problems when you are playing CV blackjack if you don't understand it. For example, if you use Basic HiLo playing strategy but you have your settings configured to calculate TC using flooring, you will be playing against the incorrect set of negative indices. The same is true if you use Complete HiLo and you settings are configured to calculate TC using truncation.

    For 16 vs. 10, if you set up TC calculations as truncated, you will find that for RC < 0 you will be truncating to TC =0 until you reach TC = -1. That means you will continue to stand on 16 vs. 10 even when RC < 0 yet TC = 0. you can see that this can affect your decisions depending on how you learn it, so be careful to understand the differences.


    Don/Norm - Hopefully I described this correctly. Please correct me if I have screwed up any part of this description.

  9. #9


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    For the case of RC=0, which is what the OP is asking about, whether you are flooring or rounding or truncating is irrelevant. Exactly zero is zero in all cases.

    I also would like to add that, theoretical considerations aside, from a practical point of view, whether you hit or stand on 16 vs T at RC=0 will make very little difference to your long term expectation. It's not worth worrying about.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    For the case of RC=0, which is what the OP is asking about, whether you are flooring or rounding or truncating is irrelevant. Exactly zero is zero in all cases.

    I also would like to add that, theoretical considerations aside, from a practical point of view, whether you hit or stand on 16 vs T at RC=0 will make very little difference to your long term expectation. It's not worth worrying about.
    You are correct, it doesn't have any material impact on profitability.

    The issue OP is describing, however, is a real difference in the software/methods be taught by BJ Apprenticeship and it definitely is confusing once you realize it exists. It is frustrating when you are trying to learn and one training tool says 'do X' while another says 'do Y'.

    And I have myself setup CV blackjack where flooring vs. truncating is indeed relevant, because you don't get what you would expect.

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