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Thread: Hard 16 vs 10, no surrender H17

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  1. #1


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    Hard 16 vs 10, no surrender H17

    Hello Blackjack community!

    I apologize for the newbie question. But following basic strategy, with a running count = 0, no surrender, H7...

    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?

    If you need more info on how I am seeing it: I am following Colin Jones strategy, playing the flashcard app, H17, setting the count = 0 (practice my basic) and letting there be no surrender.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!

  2. #2


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    I heard from a video with Semyon Dukach that no matter what the count is, if you don't see any 5's on the table then its always better to hit. If someone can elaborate more on that, would appreciate it.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?
    When the dealer shows an upcard of 7,8,9, or any 10 value card, it does not matter what the house rule is regarding H/S on soft 17.

  4. #4


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    So, are you saying I should hit on these or stay?

    When I play it says H, on a 16VA, 16v9, but 16v19 stand.

    Thanks!

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by GoalSeeker View Post
    Hello Blackjack community!

    I apologize for the newbie question. But following basic strategy, with a running count = 0, no surrender, H7...

    You are dealt a hard 16 vs a 10, running count = 0, H17, no surrender (sorry repeating myself!) should you stand?

    According to Casino Verite it says I should stand. I just thought it was interesting because I have the BJA app and it always says to hit... perhaps it is because that app might be focused on S17 games?

    If you need more info on how I am seeing it: I am following Colin Jones strategy, playing the flashcard app, H17, setting the count = 0 (practice my basic) and letting there be no surrender.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!
    For you to be dealt 16 vs 10 (not 8,8), and the RC is now 0, the RC would've been "plus" before cards are dealt. If if was "0" before cards dealt, and you get the same scenario, the RC is now "minus." That's probably why the discrepancy.

  6. #6


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    The value of the count before the hand is dealt is irrelevant. Only the count at the time of the decision matters.

    For HiLo, which is what BJA uses, the index to stand is zero. So for a running coint of zero you should stand. I did notice while reading Colin's book that BJA recommends hitting when the running count is zero. I don't know what research he has done in order to determine this. My own research supports standing.

    Dukach's suggestion to look at the number of 5s on the table is a weak form of localized card counting. If you are using an actual card counting system, then you have more accurate information and should follow it. A similar rule of thumb for basic strategy players is to hit a 2 card 16 vs T and stand on a multi card 16. This is also a weak form of localized card counting which is trumped by actual card counting.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    A similar rule of thumb for basic strategy players is to hit a 2 card 16 vs T and stand on a multi card 16. This is also a weak form of localized card counting which is trumped by actual card counting.
    Interesting thread. As for multi card 16’s, for counters, stand in positive counts - except when 1 of those 3 or more cards is a 6. But of course, you knew that.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Interesting thread. As for multi card 16’s, for counters, stand in positive counts - except when 1 of those 3 or more cards is a 6. But of course, you knew that.
    @ Freight: I will, of course, not be offended by any beratement for asking this due to my ignorance on this matter, but getting this correct is more important to me than receiving any scorn or ridicule.

    In your quote above, I assume you meant stand in positive running counts. You know what happens when one assumes, so please confirm whether my assumption is correct.

    Additionally, I obviously did not know the reference you made regarding holding a 6 in a >2 card 16, so could you please provide a reference or source? I'd like to read the article/book where that is found. If it's Don's BJA, I will be very embarassed for missing it, but (again) getting this correct is more important to me than being embarassed.

    Thank you in advance.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wave View Post
    @ Freight: I will, of course, not be offended by any beratement for asking this due to my ignorance on this matter, but getting this correct is more important to me than receiving any scorn or ridicule.

    In your quote above, I assume you meant stand in positive running counts. You know what happens when one assumes, so please confirm whether my assumption is correct.

    Additionally, I obviously did not know the reference you made regarding holding a 6 in a >2 card 16, so could you please provide a reference or source? I'd like to read the article/book where that is found. If it's Don's BJA, I will be very embarassed for missing it, but (again) getting this correct is more important to me than being embarassed.

    Thank you in advance.
    Well, from 1 arrogant ass to another, I don’t think the question is silly at all. To clarify, paraphrased and abbreviated, hit 2 card 16 at neg RC, stand 0 or above. In 3 card 16, generally stand, but hitting is correct in a positive count, if one of the 3 cards is a 6. It’s slight.

    I recall Don challenging me, which wasn’t difficult, as to why that would be correct. I’ll see if I can find at least 1 of the references alluded to from posts that were months, if not years apart. I doubt that it’s in BJA.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Well, from 1 arrogant ass to another, I don’t think the question is silly at all. To clarify, paraphrased and abbreviated, hit 2 card 16 at neg RC, stand 0 or above. In 3 card 16, generally stand, but hitting is correct in a positive count, if one of the 3 cards is a 6. It’s slight.
    This makes no sense to me at all. These kinds of adjustments apply to basic strategy players because they are accurate off the top of the shoe. I don't know if this one is accurate or not. In the absence of other information, the composition of your hand implies enough about the composition of the remaining cards to warrant a change in strategy.

    However, when counting, the composition of the cards which have been dealt and hence of those which remain is represented by the running count. What difference does it make if there is a 6 in your hand vs in some else's hand or even dealt during the previous round? These all represent the same depletion of a 6 from the remaining cards.

    Once again. The running count is +10 with 2 decks remaining to play. Do you really believe that the presence of a 6 in your multi card 16 vs T is enough to negate the sizeable advantage of standing over hitting?

    I'm certain that you're mistakenly applying a composition dependent basic strategy rule of thumb to card counting.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    These kinds of adjustments apply to basic strategy players because they are accurate off the top of the shoe. In the absence of other information, the composition of your hand implies enough about the composition of the remaining cards to warrant a change in strategy.

    However, when counting, the composition of the cards which have been dealt and hence of those which remain is represented by the running count. What difference does it make if there is a 6 in your hand vs in some else's hand or even dealt during the previous round? These all represent the same depletion of a 6 from the remaining cards.

    Once again. The running count is +10 with 2 decks remaining to play. Do you really believe that the presence of a 6 in your multi card 16 vs T is enough to negate the sizeable advantage of standing over hitting?
    FOR CONSIDERATION:
    The specific cards which brought the RC into positive territory matter because different low cards in your card tag structure impact your 16 differently.

    EMBELLISHED EXAMPLE: You're playing at 3rd base with two others players. You're at mid-shoe and the Hi/Lo RC is -2, but you have no idea which specific cards brought it to that. Now you're dealt 10/6 against a 10 and after the other two players finish their hands, the RC is +3. You prepare to wave your hand, but then notice that the other two players each have 6/6/6.
    WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

    If their cards were 5/5/5, it would be a no-brainer. But to your 16, those six 6s are very much like six 10s.

    There are other considerations over how those 6s affect the dealer's hand and whether the barrage of 6s here suggests there may have been fewer of them initially contributing to the current RC. But with all RCs of -1 to +1, I personally look for 4s, 5s, 6s and 7s (Wong Halves)) on the board, then lean my decision with 16 against a 10 accordingly.

    COMMENTS WELCOME.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Interesting thread. As for multi card 16’s, for counters, stand in positive counts - except when 1 of those 3 or more cards is a 6. But of course, you knew that.
    I disagree. For counters, the composition of the hand is irrelevant. Would you really hit a multi card 16 vs T at a positive count because contains a 6? This sounds like composition dependent basic strategy which is only weakly correlated to counting.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    I disagree. For counters, the composition of the hand is irrelevant. Would you really hit a multi card 16 vs T at a positive count because contains a 6? This sounds like composition dependent basic strategy which is only weakly correlated to counting.
    Straight from Don. It would be a very negligible alley, but it’s there. There’s a couple of references
    Buried here - not sure I can find them. He can certainly advise if im right or wrong.

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