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Thread: Importance of Burn Card - 6d vs 8d

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    Importance of Burn Card - 6d vs 8d

    I have a running debate with some guys about the value of knowing the burn card, as far as it's significance when counting (hi-lo for example). I can't remember the source, but years ago I read somewhere that knowing the burn card gives significant extra advantage when counting in a 6 deck game, but not so much with 8 decks. Anyone know where I can find confirmation, and the stats on that?
    Frank

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    It's simply another unseen card. Nothing to be concerned about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paymypush View Post
    It's simply another unseen card. Nothing to be concerned about.
    Exactly. Why do you think some casinos are willing to show the burn card if doing so offered "significant extra advantage"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankd View Post
    I have a running debate with some guys about the value of knowing the burn card, as far as it's significance when counting (hi-lo for example). I can't remember the source, but years ago I read somewhere that knowing the burn card gives significant extra advantage when counting in a 6 deck game, but not so much with 8 decks. Anyone know where I can find confirmation, and the stats on that?
    Frank
    Seeing a single extra card has, obviously, varying degrees of extra edge, depending on rules, spread, and style of play. For a 75%-cut game, play all, DAS, 1-12 spread, Hi-Lo, I18, it adds 1.64% to the SCORE of an 8-deck game and 1.93% to the SCORE of a 6-deck game. 18 cents for the first game; 37 cents for the second.

    So, "significant"? Afraid not.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Seeing a single extra card has, obviously, varying degrees of extra edge, depending on rules, spread, and style of play. For a 75%-cut game, play all, DAS, 1-12 spread, Hi-Lo, I18, it adds 1.64% to the SCORE of an 8-deck game and 1.93% to the SCORE of a 6-deck game. 18 cents for the first game; 37 cents for the second.

    So, "significant"? Afraid not.

    Don
    What about DD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paymypush View Post
    It's simply another unseen card. Nothing to be concerned about.
    It's the same logic as entering a shoe after it has already started. You always have to adjust for the number of cards unseen. That means considering all cards missed before you started counting plus those still in the shoe. If you show up one deck into a shoe, your denominator for the TC calculation will be the decks remaining in the shoe plus one. For example, if you see two decks remaining then TC = RC / (2 + 1).

    If you miss the burn card, then the denominator adjustment is plus 1/52, which is trivial.

    Technically speaking:
    For the same number of decks played, the burn card is a larger distortion for a 6 deck shoe, so it is more affected.
    When the number of decks remaining is equal, the distortion is equivalent regardless of shoe size.
    At the end of the shoe, the distortion has more impact for the shoe that is dealt more deeply (fewest cards remaining), regardless of shoe size.
    But it's still trivial.

    If you can see the burn card (or the bottom card), however, you might have more information (+1 or -1) to make your RC more accurate. In that case, the RC adjustment is more valuable for either shoe depending on the same factors listed above. The extra information becomes more valuable as you play deeper into the shoe. A middle card does not really help because it does not change the RC, so its value is trivial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    What about DD?
    Adds 3.1% to SCORE, again, with various assumptions. Obviously, always worth more the fewer the number of decks played against.

    Don

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    Thanks for all the replies. Based on this info, I will only consider asking to see the burn card if is a very deeply dealt 6d game.
    Frank

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    Ask if you must but try to be creative. Read the similar threads at the bottom left of this page.

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    Well, the burn card might not be shown but I always thought being able to see the bottom card of a DD deck and cutting it in or out of play had significant impact. Just don’t know how much.

    For example, dealer pulls out the DD from an ASM, and you are able to see the bottom card is a bust car, you cut that card out of play, you start your RC at +1. What is it worth in a 60% dealt deck?

    Its probably more difficult to assess the worth of a 10 card you cut into play. Does it help?

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