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Thread: Hi Lo Deviations for S17 and H17

  1. #1


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    Hi Lo Deviations for S17 and H17

    Hi all.

    I'm curious whether people are memorizing deviations for a variety of games. Specifically, I'm practicing deviations for S17 shoe games, but it seems like if you really want to be versatile you need to learn at least H17 shoe games. And then there are DD games with another set of basic strategy and deviation rules.

    Are people actually learning 2 to 4 different sets of basic strategy rules along with their associated deviations? This would seem difficult, if not impossible, to keep track of without mixing up the various index plays.

    If you're only learning one composite set of BS and deviations, do you typically try to play only one type of game?

    The reason I ask is that there are many H17 shoe games near me, so eventually I would try to learn both S17 and H17 deviations. But it seems challenging.

    Thanks for any input.

  2. #2


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I can only speak to 6 deck games. If you are going to play both H17 and S17 games and want to learn only 1 set of indexes to play both games with, you are probably better off using the S17 indexes since S17 games normally have higher minimum bets. I ran two sims once for REKO 6 Deck Full that showed you lost less EV doing it this way than vice versa.

    However, those sims just showed the comparison for an equal number of hands played and did not account for playing more hands on one game versus the other. So, that may be an additional factor to be considered.

    I'm also pretty sure I read once either Don or Norm stating something similar to this.

    If you want to learn the easiest way to have one count for all games, check out Norm's Simple REKO, IMO it is the most versatile count for all games, but comes with a cost of lower EV. In the past, I have used it with good results.

    https://www.qfit.com/rekostrategy.htm
    Last edited by Wave; 01-22-2020 at 07:21 PM.
    "This is a discipline thing. You either do it right or you don't do it at all."

    Don Schlesinger, pg 2, "Blackjack Attack: Playing the Pros' Way", 3rd Edition.

  3. #3


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    Are you suggesting that if I'm only going to memorize one set of indexes, it's better to learn the S17 indexes because casinos have higher mins (and therefore higher max bets) for S17 games so it's better if I get that 100% accurate? As opposed to lower min H17 games where I can afford a few more errors?

    I know that utilizing a S17 basic strategy for H17 games results in less lost EV than vice versa - that's interesting that the same applies for indexes. Did you run the sim for Ill 18 or full index plays?

    I reckon I ought to learn both since the H17 games are everywhere and the S17 game, while good, is a bit of a drive for me to make on a weekly basis.

  4. #4


    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by SplitEm View Post
    I reckon I ought to learn both since the H17 games are everywhere and the S17 game, while good, is a bit of a drive for me to make on a weekly basis.
    Learn the indices for the games you primarily play. If you're a HL player or play mostly in PA, then learn S17. Otherwise H17 will serve you best. I'd guesstimate that 90%, if not more, of the games around the country are H17, unfortunately.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by SplitEm View Post
    Are you suggesting that if I'm only going to memorize one set of indexes, it's better to learn the S17 indexes because casinos have higher mins (and therefore higher max bets) for S17 games so it's better if I get that 100% accurate? As opposed to lower min H17 games where I can afford a few more errors?

    I know that utilizing a S17 basic strategy for H17 games results in less lost EV than vice versa - that's interesting that the same applies for indexes. Did you run the sim for Ill 18 or full index plays?

    I reckon I ought to learn both since the H17 games are everywhere and the S17 game, while good, is a bit of a drive for me to make on a weekly basis.
    Q1 Yes
    Q2 Yes, but the proportion of hands played on each game would affect this.
    Q3 REKO 6 Deck Full (all indexes, but I suspect the same would be true for I-18).
    Last edited by Wave; 01-23-2020 at 03:27 AM.
    "This is a discipline thing. You either do it right or you don't do it at all."

    Don Schlesinger, pg 2, "Blackjack Attack: Playing the Pros' Way", 3rd Edition.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wave View Post

    If you want to learn the easiest way to have one count for all games, check out Norm's Simple REKO, IMO it is the most versatile count for all games, but comes with a cost of lower EV. In the past, I have used it with good results.

    https://www.qfit.com/rekostrategy.htm
    I debated learning REKO when first starting, but decided to pick up HiLo instead. My main issue with it was if your TC was off by even 1, this could cause major errors in your bet spreads. HiLo seems a little more forgiving utilizing TC.

    It's something to think about though.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Learn the indices for the games you primarily play. If you're a HL player or play mostly in PA, then learn S17. Otherwise H17 will serve you best. I'd guesstimate that 90%, if not more, of the games around the country are H17, unfortunately.
    That's an idea. I think I need to spend a couple hours running sims to see how Ill 18 for S17 works for H17 games.

  8. #8


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by SplitEm View Post
    I think I need to spend a couple hours running sims to see how Ill 18 for S17 works for H17 games.
    In the couple of hours it takes to run the sims, you could simply spend learning the indices. there aren't that many differences.

  9. #9


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    IMO the H17 indices and BS differences are plays that either increase variance for marginal EV or you achieve with S17 slightly higher counts anyway.

    The surrender plays are very important regarding Ace, of course. Definitely memorize those.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by SplitEm View Post
    Hi all.

    I'm curious whether people are memorizing deviations for a variety of games. Specifically, I'm practicing deviations for S17 shoe games, but it seems like if you really want to be versatile you need to learn at least H17 shoe games. And then there are DD games with another set of basic strategy and deviation rules.

    Are people actually learning 2 to 4 different sets of basic strategy rules along with their associated deviations? This would seem difficult, if not impossible, to keep track of without mixing up the various index plays.

    If you're only learning one composite set of BS and deviations, do you typically try to play only one type of game?

    The reason I ask is that there are many H17 shoe games near me, so eventually I would try to learn both S17 and H17 deviations. But it seems challenging.

    Thanks for any input.

    In my area I can only find H17 in shoes without going to the HL room. I started by learning that. I then made flash cards to learn more indices and rule variations. On the back of a card I have a matrix. Left and right is for H17/S17. Up and down I have BS play, BS surrender, Index play, Index surrender. If you continuously drill the cards you will learn the entire "set of plays" for the hand. I expand the matrix on the card if I want to add something new (ENHC, NDAS). Next step for me is adding SHOE/DD split to the H17/S17 columns. I find that once you have learned everything completely it's not bad to add on new information, or add a new card to widen your indices.

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