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Thread: HiLo + 7m9c Sim Results

  1. #1


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    HiLo + 7m9c Sim Results

    Please don't shoot the messenger!

    For whoever is interested, here are the SCOREs for the simulations that were requested by bjanalyst. The reason it took so long is that I made an error when configuring the indices. The initial results didn't look right and it took a bit of trial an error to track it down at a time when this was not my top priority.

    In the table below:
    • HiLo+7m9c-b refers to using the 7m9c side count for betting decisions only. HiLo and HiLo indices were used for playing decisions.
    • HiLo+7m9c-p refers to using the 7m9c side count for playing decisions only (the 6 indices proposed in the previous thread). HiLo and HiLo indices were used for all other playing decisions.
    • HiLo+7m9c-b-p refers to using the 7m9c side count both for betting and for the 6 playing decisions playing decisions. HiLo and HiLo indices were used for all other playing decisions.


    It can be seen that the use of 7m9c to supplement HiLo does offer about a 3%-5% improvement for both betting and playing decisions and about a 7%-10% improvement when using it for both, depending on the scenario. It does not approach the performance of HiOpt II+ASC, but bjanalyst has already conceded that in the original thread.


    Code:
    SCORE Comparison                                
                                    
    Rules: 6 Decks, 52 Cards Cut Off, S17, BJ 3/2, DOA, DAS, LS, SPL3, SA1, PEEK                                
    Counting System: HiLo
      True Count Conversion Options                                
        Deck Estimation:       round to nearest 0.50 decks                                
        True Count Conversion: floor to nearest 1.00                        
      Index Strategy: HiLo 1994                                
      Index Strategy: HiLo + 7m9c                                
      Index Strategy: HiOpt II + ASC                                
                                    
    Scenario  System             Source        SCORE        Delta
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Play-All 1-8                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        40.09        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        42.34        5.61%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        42.44        0.24%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        44.24        4.24%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        52.47       18.60%
                                    
    Play-All 1-10                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        46.70        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        49.10        5.14%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        49.36        0.53%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        51.36        4.05%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        59.63       16.10%
                                    
    Play-All 1-12                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        51.64        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        54.16        4.88%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        54.58        0.78%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        56.71        3.90%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        64.94       14.51%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-1                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        65.56        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        67.90        3.57%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        68.77        1.28%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        71.13        3.43%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        75.42        6.03%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-2                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        78.24        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        81.04        3.58%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        82.30        1.55%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        84.91        3.17%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        90.82        6.96%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-4                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        86.06        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        88.89        3.29%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        90.48        1.79%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        93.19        3.00%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        98.80        6.02%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-8                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        88.18        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        91.05        3.25%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        92.88        2.01%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        95.66        2.99%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        102.08       6.71%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-12                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        89.40        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        92.28        3.22%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        94.25        2.13%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        97.02        2.94%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        102.94       6.10%
                                    
    Unrestricted                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        90.01        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        92.86        3.17%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        94.90        2.20%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        97.63        2.88%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        103.25       5.76%

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Please don't shoot the messenger!

    For whoever is interested, here are the SCOREs for the simulations that were requested by bjanalyst. The reason it took so long is that I made an error when configuring the indices. The initial results didn't look right and it took a bit of trial an error to track it down at a time when this was not my top priority.

    In the table below:
    • HiLo+7m9c-b refers to using the 7m9c side count for betting decisions only. HiLo and HiLo indices were used for playing decisions.
    • HiLo+7m9c-p refers to using the 7m9c side count for playing decisions only (the 6 indices proposed in the previous thread). HiLo and HiLo indices were used for all other playing decisions.
    • HiLo+7m9c-b-p refers to using the 7m9c side count both for betting and for the 6 playing decisions playing decisions. HiLo and HiLo indices were used for all other playing decisions.


    It can be seen that the use of 7m9c to supplement HiLo does offer about a 3%-5% improvement for both betting and playing decisions and about a 7%-10% improvement when using it for both, depending on the scenario. It does not approach the performance of HiOpt II+ASC, but bjanalyst has already conceded that in the original thread.


    Code:
    SCORE Comparison                                
                                    
    Rules: 6 Decks, 52 Cards Cut Off, S17, BJ 3/2, DOA, DAS, LS, SPL3, SA1, PEEK                                
    Counting System: HiLo
      True Count Conversion Options                                
        Deck Estimation:       round to nearest 0.50 decks                                
        True Count Conversion: floor to nearest 1.00                        
      Index Strategy: HiLo 1994                                
      Index Strategy: HiLo + 7m9c                                
      Index Strategy: HiOpt II + ASC                                
                                    
    Scenario  System             Source        SCORE        Delta
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Play-All 1-8                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        40.09        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        42.34        5.61%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        42.44        0.24%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        44.24        4.24%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        52.47       18.60%
                                    
    Play-All 1-10                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        46.70        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        49.10        5.14%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        49.36        0.53%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        51.36        4.05%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        59.63       16.10%
                                    
    Play-All 1-12                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        51.64        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        54.16        4.88%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        54.58        0.78%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        56.71        3.90%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        64.94       14.51%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-1                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        65.56        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        67.90        3.57%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        68.77        1.28%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        71.13        3.43%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        75.42        6.03%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-2                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        78.24        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        81.04        3.58%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        82.30        1.55%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        84.91        3.17%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        90.82        6.96%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-4                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        86.06        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        88.89        3.29%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        90.48        1.79%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        93.19        3.00%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        98.80        6.02%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-8                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        88.18        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        91.05        3.25%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        92.88        2.01%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        95.66        2.99%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        102.08       6.71%
                                    
    Back-Count 1-12                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        89.40        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        92.28        3.22%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        94.25        2.13%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        97.02        2.94%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        102.94       6.10%
                                    
    Unrestricted                                
              HiLo Full Indices  Gronbog        90.01        
              HiLo+7m9c-p        Gronbog        92.86        3.17%
              HiLo+7m9c-b        Gronbog        94.90        2.20%
              HiLo+7m9c-b-p      Gronbog        97.63        2.88%
              HiOpt II + ASC     Gronbog        103.25       5.76%
    To refresh, what is the 7m9c-p? What cards are one counting?

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    To refresh, what is the 7m9c-p? What cards are one counting?
    A side count. 7 minus 9 count. For play only. (-b for bet only.) (-p -b for both play and bet using 7 minus 9 count.)

  4. #4


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    So, as you will all recall, with no sims yet forthcoming, I said that, on a scale of 1-10, with Hi-Lo basically zero and Hi-Opt II 10, the proposed system would probably rank as a 3 or 4.

    It ranks less than 3 for play all and about a 5 for backcounting. So, overall, let's call that a 4!! Surprise, surprise!

    As always, thanks to Gronbog for his meticulous work -- work that, in this case, was easily and clearly predicted by me months ago.

    We move on.

    Don

  5. #5


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Someone go wake bjanalyst up and ask him for a comment.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Someone go wake bjanalyst up and ask him for a comment.
    You have to be kidding! And start another 150-post thread?!

    Don

  7. #7


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    I want to thank Gronbog for his hard work with the sims.

    I am attachexd a PDF with another way to look at the sim results.

    For play all, the HL w 7m9c captures over (1/3)rd of the gain over the HL if HO2 w ASC is used.

    For back counting, the HL w 7m9c captures over (1/2)rd of the gain over the HL if HO2 w ASC is used.

    This is all done without having to learn a new count system or new indices.

    All of the counters I meet use the HL and refuse to switch from the HL as they like it, it is easy for them to use and they do not want to get confused learning a new count and making mistakes. It is for these hard core HL players that I wanted to suggest an easy side count to help improve the HL.

    So if LS is offered and no side bets are offered where other side counts my help with, using 7m9c for just the top 6 strategy changes and for betting gives a significant improvement with the HL with very little additional work.

    So now that you know the performance of the HL, the HL player can determine whether he wans o use the 7m9c with the HL.

    Remember, 7m9c does not help with insurance or hard 16 v T, the two most important strategy changes. Without help with these core strategy changes, the 7m9c was doomed not to outperform the HO2 w ASC.

    But again, my goal was to improve the HL with a simple side count and the HO2 w ASC was used as a yard stick to see how much improvement there is.

    Also I used only the top 6 HL w 7m9c strategy changes. There are more strategy changes which would improve the results of HL w 7m9c but that is just for theoretical interest as I wanted to keep the system as simple as possible with only the top 6 strategy changes. I am just mentioning this as the HO2 w ASC uses all strategy changes and I have limited the help that the 7m9c does with the HL to just the top 6 strategy changes. The increase would not be significant with these extra strategy changes but I just wanted to mention this anyhow.

    Gronbog emailed me that he would be willing to do other sims if readers are interested.

    I had mentioned HL with Am6c as a candidate for another sim. Am6c helps with insurance and hard 16 v 7, 8, 9, T hit/stand decisions and hard 16 surrender decisions. So Am6c help with decision that 7m9c does not help with. Of course Am6c does not help with betting and only playing strategy. But if LS is not offered, then Am6c might be considered as simple side count to help the HL player.

    For the two deck game, I would never suggested an unbalanced count like the KO. A two deck game should use only balanced counts. And in two deck play all games, PE is more important than BE. And I would assume that LS is not offered in two deck games which would make using 7m9c not a good alternative. So fore the two deck game, I would suggest for the HL player to keep HL with Am6c.

    So if there is interest in the sim results of HL w Am6c please reply to this thread. If there is sufficient interest, Gronbog said he would do sims.

    If both 7m9c and Am6c were used with the HL then my prediction is that HL w 7m9c and Am6c would come close to the HO2 w ASC. But that is using two side counts with the HL which most players would probably balk at as they want to use just one simple side count with the HL.

    Finally, I was very intrigued by other players who talked about Tarzan's count that beats the HO2 w ASC. I am just curious what the Tarzan count is.

    If someone knows that Tarzan count, can they post it to this thread.

    Thanks,
    HL w 7m9c vs HO2 w ASC.pdf

  8. #8


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I use HiLo so how do you do the 7minus9 stuff. You count 7’s and 9’s how§.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    You have to be kidding! And start another 150-post thread?!

    Don
    Don - Go to the top of the page, click on Thread Tools, just above the first post, then click on Ignore Thread. It will be good for your blood pressure

  10. #10


    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Don - Go to the top of the page, click on Thread Tools, just above the first post, then click on Ignore Thread. It will be good for your blood pressure

    me.jpg
    "This is a discipline thing. You either do it right or you don't do it at all."

    Don Schlesinger, pg 2, "Blackjack Attack: Playing the Pros' Way", 3rd Edition.

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