See the top rated post in this thread. Click here

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 42

Thread: I saw recent Vegas EITS photos

  1. #1


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    Post I saw recent Vegas EITS photos

    An acquaintance of mine that isn't an AP returned from a trip to Vegas. He had an interesting story about the casino "cheating" his friend out of money while playing craps.

    I was not so much interested in yet another dubious story involving Vegas casinos cheating you in the 21st century, but rather one specific aspect of the story - the quality of photos taken from EITS from a major casino in the strip.

    The story goes that that one of the base dealers overpaid the friend, who had been using some type of progression betting system that repeatedly swapped the types of chips used. (An example would be using one black chip and three greens, then using four greens for a separate come-out round. A total of four chips each time, just colors changing.)

    While playing for an extended period, the boxman gets called over by pit personnel and returns to the table, asking the friend to step aside to talk. He explains that the dealer overpaid and surveillance needs him to return some chips. The friend refuses to do anything without evidence and the casino shows him photographs of the player's bet and the dealer mispaying.

    The friend asks to take a closer look at the photos, pulls out his phone, and snaps a picture of one of the sheets containing several photographs before the casino personnel grab the papers back, telling him he can't do that. Supposedly he wanted evidence in case he needed to lawyer up.

    Omitting the rest of the story, I asked my acquaintance to ask his friend to send a copy of the picture. Below are some observations:

    1. There are many angles of one photo - If this isn't obvious when you look up, there are pictures of you from all angles and of the table from multiple angles. Any notion of hiding yourself with something like a hat does you zero service.

    2. EITS photographs are extremely detailed - If anyone here cares about photography, some camera features:
    • LOW ISO - There is little grain despite the darker atmosphere of the casino. There is a great deal of clarity, from details of individual chips and color.
    • ZOOM CAPABILITIES - One of the photos is an optically zoomed (NOT digital) image from the same angle. No loss of clarity.
    • FAST SHUTTER SPEED - There is clear arm/hand movement captured in the photograph. The dice are mid-air and people moving in the background. The only blurred movement are the dice.


    Mind you, this is what I'm able to observe from a photo of a photograph printed on paper. I can only imagine how much more detail is available to surveillance when looking at the raw images.

    Welcoming any further questions. No I will not post the photo.

  2. #2


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    An acquaintance of mine that isn't an AP returned from a trip to Vegas. He had an interesting story about the casino "cheating" his friend out of money while playing craps.

    I was not so much interested in yet another dubious story involving Vegas casinos cheating you in the 21st century, but rather one specific aspect of the story - the quality of photos taken from EITS from a major casino in the strip.

    The story goes that that one of the base dealers overpaid the friend, who had been using some type of progression betting system that repeatedly swapped the types of chips used. (An example would be using one black chip and three greens, then using four greens for a separate come-out round. A total of four chips each time, just colors changing.)

    While playing for an extended period, the boxman gets called over by pit personnel and returns to the table, asking the friend to step aside to talk. He explains that the dealer overpaid and surveillance needs him to return some chips. The friend refuses to do anything without evidence and the casino shows him photographs of the player's bet and the dealer mispaying.

    The friend asks to take a closer look at the photos, pulls out his phone, and snaps a picture of one of the sheets containing several photographs before the casino personnel grab the papers back, telling him he can't do that. Supposedly he wanted evidence in case he needed to lawyer up.

    Omitting the rest of the story, I asked my acquaintance to ask his friend to send a copy of the picture. Below are some observations:

    1. There are many angles of one photo - If this isn't obvious when you look up, there are pictures of you from all angles and of the table from multiple angles. Any notion of hiding yourself with something like a hat does you zero service.

    2. EITS photographs are extremely detailed - If anyone here cares about photography, some camera features:
    • LOW ISO - There is little grain despite the darker atmosphere of the casino. There is a great deal of clarity, from details of individual chips and color.
    • ZOOM CAPABILITIES - One of the photos is an optically zoomed (NOT digital) image from the same angle. No loss of clarity.
    • FAST SHUTTER SPEED - There is clear arm/hand movement captured in the photograph. The dice are mid-air and people moving in the background. The only blurred movement are the dice.


    Mind you, this is what I'm able to observe from a photo of a photograph printed on paper. I can only imagine how much more detail is available to surveillance when looking at the raw images.

    Welcoming any further questions. No I will not post the photo.
    This was a great post, well done!

    Do you have any advice on ratholing green chips consistently with technology like this out there? I’ve already practiced palming techniques but I’m going to need to know a lot more than that to rathole freely.

  3. #3


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RatherNotGiveMyRealName View Post
    This was a great post, well done!

    Do you have any advice on ratholing green chips consistently with technology like this out there? I’ve already practiced palming techniques but I’m going to need to know a lot more than that to rathole freely.
    lets not assume that every table is being monitored all the time. High limit tables and possibly big bettors may randomly be observed. If someone is already aroused suspicion, then maybe monitoring is closer.

    I also think ratholing too many chips, Green and above, will arouse suspicion. Once, I had rathole some $300 in Green chips, then colored up for some $400 dollars. I was walking to the cage when I saw someone at the cage I then someone on a phone in the cage peering at the line outside the cage, then nodding. I kept the Green chips, just cashed the $400 I had colored up for. As I turned to leave, the same person picked up the phone and the guy at the pit picked up his and they both hung up. It’s not uncommon for them to check at the cage to see what chips you present to the cage. If you rathole, color the rathole chips at another time.

    If they catch you once, then they are going to monitor you the next time, might catch you counting.

  4. #4


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    lets not assume that every table is being monitored all the time. High limit tables and possibly big bettors may randomly be observed. If someone is already aroused suspicion, then maybe monitoring is closer.

    I also think ratholing too many chips, Green and above, will arouse suspicion. Once, I had rathole some $300 in Green chips, then colored up for some $400 dollars. I was walking to the cage when I saw someone at the cage I then someone on a phone in the cage peering at the line outside the cage, then nodding. I kept the Green chips, just cashed the $400 I had colored up for. As I turned to leave, the same person picked up the phone and the guy at the pit picked up his and they both hung up. It’s not uncommon for them to check at the cage to see what chips you present to the cage. If you rathole, color the rathole chips at another time.

    If they catch you once, then they are going to monitor you the next time, might catch you counting.
    That's true. If I get caught, it's over. I am almost forced to rathole at my local place as I'll be going there more often now and I don't want to be identified as a long-term winner. If I do rathole, do you think it would be better to rathole a few green chips or many red chips?

  5. #5


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    It's the pit personnel who monitor your chips on the occasion when they look over that you need to worry about. If surveillance cares enough or if you rathole too many chips at once, they can easily detect this. Just work on your palming techniques so it's not so obvious that you're stuffing your pockets full of chips.

    As Zee pointed out, as soon as you're identified as a ratholer, then they will naturally and automatically assign all missing chips to you as the culprit.

  6. #6


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    If playing at red chip tables, ratholing red chips are far more preferable. The pit checks on the Green chips in the tray, glances at Players chips to see where they are, quite often at red chip tables.

  7. #7


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    It's the pit personnel who monitor your chips on the occasion when they look over that you need to worry about. If surveillance cares enough or if you rathole too many chips at once, they can easily detect this. Just work on your palming techniques so it's not so obvious that you're stuffing your pockets full of chips.

    As Zee pointed out, as soon as you're identified as a ratholer, then they will naturally and automatically assign all missing chips to you as the culprit.
    Question for you, I’ve got palming pretty much down and can comfortable palm two chips at once. I can then get up from the table and reach into my pocket to check my phone while dropping the chips. If I did this twice in an hour with green chips, it would more than compensate for my EV. If I try this with red chips, however, I’d need to put them into my pocket ten times. Should I just put these into my pocket at the table? Seems like a lot of chips missing, even though they are red.

  8. #8


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    If playing at red chip tables, ratholing red chips are far more preferable. The pit checks on the Green chips in the tray, glances at Players chips to see where they are, quite often at red chip tables.
    The pit checks on the red chips as well. Not that they are looking for ratholers, but they track every table of cheque/chip totals, if nothing else to see if a fill is needed.

  9. #9


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Are chips with RFID real or just rumors?
    Anybody experiences rfid chips?

  10. #10


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RatherNotGiveMyRealName View Post
    Question for you, I’ve got palming pretty much down and can comfortable palm two chips at once. I can then get up from the table and reach into my pocket to check my phone while dropping the chips. If I did this twice in an hour with green chips, it would more than compensate for my EV. If I try this with red chips, however, I’d need to put them into my pocket ten times. Should I just put these into my pocket at the table? Seems like a lot of chips missing, even though they are red.
    I can't really give an educated answer here about whether pit personnel care more about volume or color of chips. It does however remind me of an interview about a former surveillance person who spoke to some length about what the role of EITS play. In summary, about 90% of their time is spent looking for dealer errors and cheating, and the other 10% on Advantage Play.

    Going back to your question, based off my personal observation is that casinos typically track the number of chips of each type, rather than total dollar value. A few missing green chips is less likely to raise eyebrows over dozens of red chips, which intuitively makes sense considering the table likes to color you up when departing even to another table. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this; this is just my own personal experience.

  11. #11


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    I can't really give an educated answer here about whether pit personnel care more about volume or color of chips. It does however remind me of an interview about a former surveillance person who spoke to some length about what the role of EITS play. In summary, about 90% of their time is spent looking for dealer errors and cheating, and the other 10% on Advantage Play.

    Going back to your question, based off my personal observation is that casinos typically track the number of chips of each type, rather than total dollar value. A few missing green chips is less likely to raise eyebrows over dozens of red chips, which intuitively makes sense considering the table likes to color you up when departing even to another table. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this; this is just my own personal experience.
    That was my inkling. It seems like they would notice 5x more red chips missing than green chips. On top of that, I would have to be shoving them into my pocket at a rate of 10 per hour to match my EV as opposed to just palming two greens an hour and dropping them into my pocket while I reach to check my phone.

    That’s good to hear about the 90/10 ratio.

  12. #12


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by RatherNotGiveMyRealName View Post
    Do you have any advice on ratholing green chips consistently with technology like this out there? I’ve already practiced palming techniques but I’m going to need to know a lot more than that to rathole freely.
    I already answered this question in other thread by saying that one of local store near me is using RFID chips which tracking all chips even you leave the table without color up. Just like buzzers at the doors of retail stores they use for catching shoplifters. Hope this help you regarding to ratholing chips.

  13. #13


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by cc12b View Post
    I already answered this question in other thread by saying that one of local store near me is using RFID chips which tracking all chips even you leave the table without color up. Just like buzzers at the doors of retail stores they use for catching shoplifters. Hope this help you regarding to ratholing chips.
    That could be defeated with a small amount of RF and programming knowledge. I won't say much more on an open forum.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Recent Vegas trip: New electronic shoes at the Venition and Palazzo
    By jimsmith in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-07-2018, 03:53 PM
  2. Something I do that is mean to the EITS. lol
    By BigJer in forum General Blackjack Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-11-2013, 12:12 AM
  3. Tiggis: My recent Trip to Las Vegas
    By Tiggis in forum Blackjack Main
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-19-2002, 01:08 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.