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Thread: Beginner questions

  1. #1


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    Beginner questions

    Hi,

    I have just registered here. I have not bought any products as of yet. They are on my list though. I have been practing red seven count online double deck. I have become fair and slightly profitable. I was thinking about ordering Arnold Synder Shuffle tracking cook book. I would like to learn more about it. I would also like to learn more about table wonging six deck shoes? Could you direct me to a thread on this. Can you start the shoe off and leave on certain negative counts. Then start a new shoe at a different table and be profitable. Also is hard to learn two different systems and not get them mixed up. I am worried about being spotted using the red seven count at double deck. I would like to use a system that looks less like card counting. One that has more indice changes. Thoughts. Thank You

  2. #2


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    If your only card counting practice is online and you've never played in a real casino before, I wouldn't even consider shuffle tracking for quite some time. If you haven't read any books yet, start with this one: http://qfit.com/book/index.htm it's free and if you have any questions, ask away.

    I cannot stress enough that you shouldn't even consider shuffle tracking at this point.

  3. #3


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    i'll give your my two cents, since i think these are the questions that i can handle.....

    red 7, is a unbalanced system. if you start playing 6 decks, you'll probably have to remember a few more numbers.... and batting ramps. There are other balanced system, meaning after all the cards have been played, the running count will be 0. For balanced system, most likely you'll only have to remember one set of numbers.... (op, dont have to read this line...i know for those who will cry foul... i am very over generalized....)

    there are cover play that you can learn, so it dosent look like you're so much of a counter. and most places, (again, being over generalized,) will let you slide if you don't hit their threshold of x amount of dollars per hand, or x amount of spread....

    i have a feeling that you have not really gotten to read a lot about blackjack, yet. there are plenty of sources out there. you can certainly start with qfit's modern blackjack. Since you seem to be a snyder's fan, blackbelt in blackjack is a must read.

    There is a lot to being an AP than just being profitable, although I understand that is your ultimate goal. but before you get there, you will have to learn a lot more than what you have shown in your thread...

    st. is a harder technique, depends who you ask may or may not be your best next step.

    good variance ....

    ps. just read through aussie's reply and op again. yes, if you're playing online, you shouldnt be playing at all....
    Last edited by Hsiaodi; 02-17-2012 at 03:28 PM.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsiaodi View Post
    just read through aussie's reply and op again. yes, if you're playing online, you shouldnt be playing at all....
    Online casino, yes I'd agree, I took the OP to mean he was using an online strategy trainer however, of which there are several good ones.

  5. #5


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    I think you're right Aussie. After reading it again I'm not even sure of he has any real experience in a live casino.....
    1. Gain some live experience before you even think about st
    2. Read a trusted source
    3. You don't have to buy any qfit product to ask questions. They are very helpful however.
    4. If you play online, with maybe exception of poker, stop.

    In no particular orders......

  6. #6


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    No i am using a stragey trainer. I have experience in a casino, i am a blackjack dealer. I practice while i am dealing. I just started really working on it a few weeks ago. I count when i pick up the cards. On the strategy trainer i am up a couple of hundred over 4000 hands although i was down a thousand 2000 hands ago. I spread my bet from 5 to 30 using the red seven count on the strategy trainer 2 decks. I know i could spot me counting in a real casino. However no one is really looking for counters on the six deck shoes. I was wondering if i could learn more about wonging tables. I dont really want to sit behind and count. I would rather start the shoe and leave on a negative count in designed spots in the shoe. To play less of a shoe when its not in my favor. Also i think i will order Arnold Synder Shuffle tracking cookbook. And yes i have read blackbelt in blackjack. Its the only blackjack book i have read though.

  7. #7


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    Could anyone recommend a good strategy trainer that allows you to input your local game's rules. I have only used hit or stand for basic training but that doesn't reflect my game ENHC.

  8. #8


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    I use blackjack info.com ken smiths site. You can put in all the rules.

  9. #9


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    Since you're a dealer, even more time to observe some behaviors that raises red flags.
    I think you'll notice that maybe a 1 to 6 spread won't really make you the money in a 6 deck shoe.
    Snyder also has values of different cover plays that will make you less visible.
    Lastly if you do this day in and day out you may pickup st better than most of us....

  10. #10


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    Yes i am going to order Arnold Synders ST cookbook to start. Also i think i will order Blackjack Attack 3rd edition on wonging. I know in the area i work. Six deck shoes you are more likely to go undected. That is a big goal of mine. If you table wong do you need such a big spread? I know in blackbelt in blackjack he said 1 to 8 to 1 to 16 spread. I thought if your wonging you would not need that big of spread. My thought was to start off the shoe and leave on unprofitable counts at certain points in the shoe. Also on the six deck shoe for shuffle tracking i can analze the shuffle after i deal at work. The problem is the area i work i know alot of casino workers. Some will find it funny i am playing blackjack. Because i played poker for a living for five years and some know this. I will have to be discret about it and move around alot i think. Pick places and times when it wont look suspicous. Plus i have to tip more because i know alot of people. I am very cautious person so i probably wont even try till i know i can beat the game. I probably practice for atleast a couple more months. Thoughts.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammysaid View Post
    I know in the area i work. Six deck shoes you are more likely to go undected. That is a big goal of mine. If you table wong do you need such a big spread? I know in blackbelt in blackjack he said 1 to 8 to 1 to 16 spread. I thought if your wonging you would not need that big of spread. My thought was to start off the shoe and leave on unprofitable counts at certain points in the shoe. Also on the six deck shoe for shuffle tracking i can analze the shuffle after i deal at work. The problem is the area i work i know alot of casino workers. Some will find it funny i am playing blackjack. Because i played poker for a living for five years and some know this. I will have to be discret about it and move around alot i think. Pick places and times when it wont look suspicous. Plus i have to tip more because i know alot of people. I am very cautious person so i probably wont even try till i know i can beat the game. I probably practice for atleast a couple more months. Thoughts.
    The general guideline that Arnold and many other use that you need a spread of 2x number of decks to beat the game is based on a play all approach and of course is subjective to the specific rules/conditions of the game as well as your own definition of "beat the game". So yes any type of wonging in or wonging out where you eliminate some or all negative counts, you can reduce that spread necessary achieve those results. Or a better way to think of it is still use the biggest spread you feel comfortable with and think you can get away with and it will be like playing to an even larger spread.

    I also have adopted the play off the top and wong out approach. It is a good compromise between wonging in and playing all that allowed you to eliminate a good portion of the negative counts without the extra attention of wonging in. And wonging in does draw some extra attention. Especially a player standing from the start of the shoe and backcounting. While it isn't that uncommon for a person to just watch a game, it is something that gets noticed. I certainly notice a player standing behind me not playing and I see it on the face of both dealers and pit people. They notice as well. I suspect surveillance, who's job it is to have a slightly different mindset like looking for a possible snatch and grab or other irregularities notices also. As a player, one of my top priorities is to go as unnoticed and be as least memorable as possible and that play off the top and wong out approach contributes to that goal.
    Last edited by KJ; 02-18-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  12. #12


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    This might sound dumb, but if you go up to a six deck table and started back counting, do you necessarily have to be a the start of the shoe? The cards already dealt on average should they not already be at count your using on average. I use the red 7 count so if a deck and a half was gone out of the shoe. Could i just say that this is a four and a half deck shoe. If you jump into a million shoes not know the count with 2decks gone out of six. Would it not be like playing a million 4 deck shoes. I know alot of the shoes would be way negative and some would be way positive at that point. They would average out in the long run. But could you still play profitable in the long run just using your normal count. If you started your count after not seeing all the cards?

  13. #13


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    You should treat the unseen cards as being behind the cut card.
    You're still counting a 6 deck shoe, but with worse penetration.

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