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Thread: Denver Trip Report - And an open letter to the AP I met in Blackhawk

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    Post Denver Trip Report - And an open letter to the AP I met in Blackhawk

    Background:
    I recently made a trip to Denver to visit a friend who lately has been feeling down in the dumps. It's been some time since we've seen each other, and I decided to surprise her by showing up at her doorstep with a bag packed for the week.

    Since I showed up unannounced, she still needed to go to work, meaning I had free time during the working hours of the day to make my way to the local casinos offered in Blackhawk and Central City. With a bit of research, I selected one in Blackhawk that looked nice that offered decent rules. Conveniently I was not far from the local shuttle that runs from Denver to the casinos.

    Scouting & Table Conditions:
    Walking into my casino of choice, I didn't immediately sit down at the first table I saw. There were two dealers offering the with the same rules, so my criteria is penetration. The cut card at the first table was a weak 4/6 (66.67% penetration) while the second dealer offered a more generous 5/6 (83.33% pen). Naturally, I sit down with the second dealer.

    The table is a 6D/S17/DAS/nRSA/nSurr for a house edge of 0.44%. Table limits are $5-100 (Colorado state law). I buy in with $200, immediately prompting one of the pit critters offering me a player's card, which I decline.

    Meeting the AP:
    Since it's a weekday and the casino is mostly empty, I played heads up with the dealer for a few shoes. The count stays close to zero, never prompting me to raise my bet. I'm shooting the shit with the dealer, asking about other casinos in the area I considered also playing.

    Around this point, a middle-aged guy walks up with a beer in hand observing the table. He stands there talking to the dealer and myself, spewing some nonsense about politics, trying to sound funny by making jokes. While slightly annoyed (and partially distracted), the count begins to climb.

    It's now TC +1. I slightly raise my bet. I continue play and a large clump of small cards come out of the shoe.

    It's TC +2. I continually raise my bet and the middle-aged guy (MAG) goes quiet. He silently observes some more. More clumps of small cards follow out of the shoe.

    The count rises to TC +3. MAG sits down at third base, buys in for $300, and plays 3 spots for max bets of $100 each. He proceeds to pull two blackjacks and a stiff hand that eventually totals for 20. Dealer busts. MAG stays quiet.

    MAG stays at the table with me as the count fluctuates both up and down. Aside the obvious betting patterns we mirror with each other, the pit and dealer seem quite oblivious to what is going on. This goes on for several shoes, and his pile of chips fluctuate up and down, eventually prompting him to buy in for a few hundred more at several occasions, eventually buying in close to $3000.

    While all this is happening, MAG kept getting bad cards and repeatedly lost despite high counts. I was more fortunate as variance kept kind to me. MAG played correctly, deviating from BS at the appropriate indices, only buying insurance at high counts, and so on. MAG was doing the right thing the entire time, yet kept getting crushed.

    MAG start to take this personally, acting emotional, and very sincerely hurt by what is happening. He starts cursing at the dealer, slamming the table when he pulls yet another 14 on a TC +4 against a dealer 9. He starts to play irrationally, making uncalled deviations, random side bets -- MAG is now gambling and proceeds to keep losing.

    The Lesson:
    MAG did everything right to a point, but let his losses get to him. The casino is not something you should view as a personal ATM that you visit when you want money. The casino will sometimes win against you even if you do everything right. For APs, what I believe separates long term winners from losing players is how you handle the times you lose.

    You need to focus only on playing correctly, regardless of outcome. You do this and you will eventually come out on top. Focusing only on short term wins like a greedy hog will give you same fate that awaits all hogs. They get slaughtered.

    If you're reading this, my suggestion to you is to control your emotions, not let it control you. Or play the part of the actor but keep doing the right thing as you initially did. We're playing small stakes and a $3k loss is nothing in the long run. Set your sights on the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, not the quarter that glistens in the wrong direction.
    Last edited by RUMIYODIN; 11-09-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #2


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    Interesting trip report, but if anybody showed up at my doorstep unannounced, I would be pissed and that even pertains to my kids.

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    Did MAG have a foreign accent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Interesting trip report, but if anybody showed up at my doorstep unannounced, I would be pissed and that even pertains to my kids.
    Not me. My kids and grand kids are welcome anytime, with or without notice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Interesting trip report, but if anybody showed up at my doorstep unannounced, I would be pissed and that even pertains to my kids.
    Different strokes for different folks; I would not show up unannounced unless I know I'm welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Member Name Hidden View Post
    Did MAG have a foreign accent?
    No, MAG did not strike me as foreign.

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    And here is a case for a loss limit. What the AP in the OP did was tilt. Tilt occurs when you get so frustrated and/or angry that you stop making rational decisions. Usually this is because of a prolonged stretch of running bad. Normally if you get angry or frustrated that emotion gets defused by the passage of time. But if you are getting angry and frustrated for long periods of time, then that builds up day to day and is not completely resolved by sleep or the passage of time. The result is you get very vulnerable to tilting when you are in this state, because the slightest thing can set you off.

    The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler is probably the best book for addressing tilt. Any professional AP putting in long hours is crazy if they don't read this book.
    Last edited by Meistro123; 11-09-2019 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    And here is a case for a loss limit. What the AP in the OP did was tilt.
    I would argue that while advocating for loss limits has value, it doesn't necessarily apply to all situations. For him, 100%. For individuals who have done some introspection and recognize they are prone to tilting - absolutely stop when you recognize symptoms that precede going full tilt. But it's something that everyone should learn to control. If you can't control your emotions, you have no business in this game.

    If you're playing a winning game then you should not stop playing regardless of outcome. Whether your loss is a few hundred to tens of thousands, as long as you're making the correct play decisions, betting accordingly and appropriately, your mental focus is still present, and your play is tolerated - then by all means continue playing.

    There was a podcast on Gambling With An Edge where the guest Black Asian talks about this a little. She has sessions lasting 24 hours with no stop loss. Her philosophy is continue play until a goal is reached or when she can no longer focus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Not me. My kids and grand kids are welcome anytime, with or without notice.
    There you go, Midwest Player: just send your unexpected-visit kids to Freightman's house! ;-)

    Dog Hand

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    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    If you're playing a winning game then you should not stop playing regardless of outcome. Whether your loss is a few hundred to tens of thousands, as long as you're making the correct play decisions, betting accordingly and appropriately, your mental focus is still present, and your play is tolerated - then by all means continue playing.
    If in your session while playing well you are down tens of thousands as in one of your examples it is well past time to take your play somewhere else. Your continued play will NOT be tolerated you will be on a very short leash. You think that they are going to let you win much of THEIR money you would be mistaken. You need to understand at that point they already have you by the balls, and would enjoy conversing about how they threw you out after a very small upswing. The lesson here is being behind big especially at higher stakes does not buy extra time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    If in your session while playing well you are down tens of thousands as in one of your examples it is well past time to take your play somewhere else. Your continued play will NOT be tolerated you will be on a very short leash. You think that they are going to let you win much of THEIR money you would be mistaken. You need to understand at that point they already have you by the balls, and would enjoy conversing about how they threw you out after a very small upswing. The lesson here is being behind big especially at higher stakes does not buy extra time.
    You made me think about my backoff s. All of my local back offs, I was up, Mostly (cumulatively) insanely up. Preferred City number 1, bounced from 1 place, up a few thousand cumulatively, not insanely up, though 1 particular session led me to my downfall. No backoff in preferred city number 2. My Vegas backoff s, the only place I was down was Stratosphere - down maybe 2 to 2.5k. Vegas is so sweaty..........youll get kicked out by farting loudly (like a smoke signal)

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    I

    There was a podcast on Gambling With An Edge where the guest Black Asian talks about this a little. She has sessions lasting 24 hours with no stop loss. Her philosophy is continue play until a goal is reached or when she can no longer focus.
    She had sessions lasting 24 hours but not everyone is tolerated to the same level. Your age, gender, looks, demeanor, the pits ignorance, and a whole lot more is involved in playing marathon sessions. Often the best games are where you are noticed and where playing short sessions is crucial.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by RUMIYODIN View Post
    No, MAG did not strike me as foreign.
    Hmmm... I thought I knew all the APs there. So either he's older than "middle aged," as I can think of one you it might be, but his emotions usually doesn't get the best of him, or it was an out of towner like you.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    She had sessions lasting 24 hours but not everyone is tolerated to the same level. Your age, gender, looks, demeanor, the pits ignorance, and a whole lot more is involved in playing marathon sessions. Often the best games are where you are noticed and where playing short sessions is crucial.
    I agree. Of course there are considerations, many of which you list that need to be factored into how long your sessions are, your spread, level of cover, and so on. My comment was not intended to say ignore your surroundings, but rather you should not stop playing a winning game for arbitrary reasons, especially if there is no real reason to stop playing so long as you're tolerated.

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