Do you play ASM games?

**22playing21** · 10-28-2019, 06:45 PM

I was recently at a local casino that is 6D with favorable Pen and rules dealt from an ASM. Was playing with a group of older gentlemen. It was a tough shoe and the table was not doing well. One of the guys then mentioned the ASM and was basically saying it is rigged, he said that it has an "algorithm" and is shuffled a certain way and most certainly is not random. He said he knows a member from the gaming commision in the state and that gentlemen confirmed that. My thoughts however were even if it is shuffled a certain way, it can not predict the way players will play.

Do you guys play ASM pitch games?

**21forme** · 10-28-2019, 07:00 PM

There are other players at the table?

P.S. it's BS. How does the algorithm know how many players there are or where the cut will be?

**Hsiaodi** · 10-28-2019, 07:30 PM

ASM pitch 6D? One of those words don’t belong.

The machine is all knowing. I’d avoid asm/csm or anything with the letter M in it.

**nighterfighter** · 10-28-2019, 07:45 PM

Did you ask the older gentleman why he didn't make a minimum bet, then play the hand completely wrong? Split those 10s, hit that 19, don't split aces, etc? It'd would certainly screw up said algorithm.

**Goatlife** · 10-28-2019, 07:49 PM

yea bro dont touch asm's they cheat all the time, 6:5 8 deck shoe games is where the money is at.

**BJGenius007** · 10-28-2019, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by 22playing21

I was recently at a local casino that is 6D with favorable Pen and rules dealt from an ASM. Was playing with a group of older gentlemen. It was a tough shoe and the table was not doing well. One of the guys then mentioned the ASM and was basically saying it is rigged, he said that it has an "algorithm" and is shuffled a certain way and most certainly is not random. He said he knows a member from the gaming commision in the state and that gentlemen confirmed that. My thoughts however were even if it is shuffled a certain way, it can not predict the way players will play.

Do you guys play ASM pitch games?

You can play both hand-shuffled and ASM games then compare the experiences and make up your mind by yourself. There are more on this topic in all other BJ sites since Norm doesn't believe ASM clump the cards.

**BoSox** · 10-29-2019, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

There are more on this topic in all other BJ sites since Norm doesn't believe ASM clump the cards.

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

I won’t say more as it offends the moderator. Other sites have more leeway for discussions.

Who gives a shit what the moderator thinks anyway, he only reacts to something on a whim based on how he got up in the morning, enough said.

Originally Posted by ZeeBabar

The number of players is irrelevant, cards can be clumped a certain way and it distorts how they come out, making it unpredictable.

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

You can play both hand-shuffled and ASM games then compare the experiences and make up your mind by yourself.

Both good responses.

**ZeeBabar** · 10-28-2019, 08:44 PM

The number of players is irrelevant, cards can be clumped a certain way and it distorts how they come out, making it unpredictable. I won’t say more as it offends the moderator. Other sites have more leeway for discussions.

**Dog Hand** · 10-28-2019, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by 22playing21

<snip>Do you guys play ASM pitch games?

22playing21,

Yes, almost all of my play is on pitch games that use ASMs.

Oh... Welcome to the board! I don't recall seeing your handle before.

Dog Hand

**bw929** · 10-29-2019, 07:23 AM

Two points I'd like to make: I don't think the house has to be very sophisticated to cheat with ASMs. Also, they don't have to be perfect, i.e., maybe cheating on one round per shoe is good enough.

When this topic comes up, people sometimes say things like, how do they know how many players are at the table, or what if the ASM sets up the shoe a certain way ("cool deck"), but then a player does something unexpected? Doesn't that mess up the whole cheating strategy?

Here's one response. They could have it set up for three people at the table, and make the 4th and 8th cards to be tens. Now the dealer gets a 20 for the first round out of every shoe. There's an advantage right there. After the first round, it is a fair game, but the house is guaranteed to always win the first round.

What if a fourth guy shows up just after the ASM shuffle, and before the first round? Okay, so the cheating won't work this shoe. This shoe will be fair. Probably one guy will leave, and we'll cheat them on the next shoe. It doesn't have to be perfect.

Here's one that works regardless of the number of players. The ASM could just put a bunch of tens and aces at the front of the shoe. If the cut card is placed towards the front, then a bunch of tens and aces will then be at the end of the shoe, i.e, they will never be dealt. This would simulate a "short deck." It would increase the house edge (vs. basic strategy). And it would really hurt us card counters a lot, b/c it would make the count go high (lots of small cards being dealt), we bet more money, but the blackjacks never show up, b/c the good cards are at the end of the shoe.

I don't know if casinos use ASMs to cheat. (Although I'm pretty sure they cheat in other ways, so why not with ASMs?)

My main point is to squash the notion that the ASM would have to have every single card placed just so, and know how many players were at the table, and trust that every player would play as he ought. They can do very easy and unsophisticated things to create, in essence, a short deck, or to create a cool deck that would work, at least for the first round.

**ZeeBabar** · 10-29-2019, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by bw929

Two points I'd like to make: I don't think the house has to be very sophisticated to cheat with ASMs. Also, they don't have to be perfect, i.e., maybe cheating on one round per shoe is good enough.

When this topic comes up, people sometimes say things like, how do they know how many players are at the table, or what if the ASM sets up the shoe a certain way ("cool deck"), but then a player does something unexpected? Doesn't that mess up the whole cheating strategy?

Here's one response. They could have it set up for three people at the table, and make the 4th and 8th cards to be tens. Now the dealer gets a 20 for the first round out of every shoe. There's an advantage right there. After the first round, it is a fair game, but the house is guaranteed to always win the first round.

What if a fourth guy shows up just after the ASM shuffle, and before the first round? Okay, so the cheating won't work this shoe. This shoe will be fair. Probably one guy will leave, and we'll cheat them on the next shoe. It doesn't have to be perfect.

Here's one that works regardless of the number of players. The ASM could just put a bunch of tens and aces at the front of the shoe. If the cut card is placed towards the front, then a bunch of tens and aces will then be at the end of the shoe, i.e, they will never be dealt. This would simulate a "short deck." It would increase the house edge (vs. basic strategy). And it would really hurt us card counters a lot, b/c it would make the count go high (lots of small cards being dealt), we bet more money, but the blackjacks never show up, b/c the good cards are at the end of the shoe.

I don't know if casinos use ASMs to cheat. (Although I'm pretty sure they cheat in other ways, so why not with ASMs?)

My main point is to squash the notion that the ASM would have to have every single card placed just so, and know how many players were at the table, and trust that every player would play as he ought. They can do very easy and unsophisticated things to create, in essence, a short deck, or to create a cool deck that would work, at least for the first round.

Discussions about ASM are not encouraged on this forum. There is a massive thread or two on the Wizard forum, here is one...https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb...uth-solved/17/

**BJGenius007** · 10-29-2019, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by bw929

Two points I'd like to make: I don't think the house has to be very sophisticated to cheat with ASMs. Also, they don't have to be perfect, i.e., maybe cheating on one round per shoe is good enough.

When this topic comes up, people sometimes say things like, how do they know how many players are at the table, or what if the ASM sets up the shoe a certain way ("cool deck"), but then a player does something unexpected? Doesn't that mess up the whole cheating strategy?

Here's one response. They could have it set up for three people at the table, and make the 4th and 8th cards to be tens. Now the dealer gets a 20 for the first round out of every shoe. There's an advantage right there. After the first round, it is a fair game, but the house is guaranteed to always win the first round.

What if a fourth guy shows up just after the ASM shuffle, and before the first round? Okay, so the cheating won't work this shoe. This shoe will be fair. Probably one guy will leave, and we'll cheat them on the next shoe. It doesn't have to be perfect.

Here's one that works regardless of the number of players. The ASM could just put a bunch of tens and aces at the front of the shoe. If the cut card is placed towards the front, then a bunch of tens and aces will then be at the end of the shoe, i.e, they will never be dealt. This would simulate a "short deck." It would increase the house edge (vs. basic strategy). And it would really hurt us card counters a lot, b/c it would make the count go high (lots of small cards being dealt), we bet more money, but the blackjacks never show up, b/c the good cards are at the end of the shoe.

I don't know if casinos use ASMs to cheat. (Although I'm pretty sure they cheat in other ways, so why not with ASMs?)

My main point is to squash the notion that the ASM would have to have every single card placed just so, and know how many players were at the table, and trust that every player would play as he ought. They can do very easy and unsophisticated things to create, in essence, a short deck, or to create a cool deck that would work, at least for the first round.

Since the thread is always yellow, I can speak more freely.

Regarding ASM doesn't know how many players at the table as you said in the post, that is not how ASM cheats. Casinos may program ASM to cheat only 33% or 50% of the shoes. Say it is set 33%, then ASM will clump a shoe after shuffle two normal shoes. And for the clumped shoe, it just contains face clumps and small card clumps. Say the shoe is composed of face card clump, normal distributed cards, small card clump, face card clump, normal distributed cards, smll card clumps. No matter how many players at the table, when entering the face card clump, most people got 20 so is the dealer, so almost everyone pushes except one or two players get accent card. (Accent cards are important to make the shoe less suspicious. Like among thirteen face cards, they put two accent cards in the sequence.) When entering small card clump (2,3,4,5,6), dealer makes the hand while people stop at 12,13,14,15,16,17. Also it is dangerous to double like 3+6 v 6 or 4+6 v 3 or 5+6 v 5 etc, the players will get a small card while dealer most likely makes the hand. From my experience, some casinos set the clump rate like this: 25% at $25 table, 33% at $15 table, 50% at $10 or $5 table. This will make casinos have edge over BS players and AP.

**ShipTheCookies** · 10-29-2019, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by BJGenius007

Since the thread is always yellow, I can speak more freely.

Regarding ASM doesn't know how many players at the table as you said in the post, that is not how ASM cheats. Casinos may program ASM to cheat only 33% or 50% of the shoes. Say it is set 33%, then ASM will clump a shoe after shuffle two normal shoes. And for the clumped shoe, it just contains face clumps and small card clumps. Say the shoe is composed of face card clump, normal distributed cards, small card clump, face card clump, normal distributed cards, smll card clumps. No matter how many players at the table, when entering the face card clump, most people got 20 so is the dealer, so almost everyone pushes except one or two players get accent card. (Accent cards are important to make the shoe less suspicious. Like among thirteen face cards, they put two accent cards in the sequence.) When entering small card clump (2,3,4,5,6), dealer makes the hand while people stop at 12,13,14,15,16,17. Also it is dangerous to double like 3+6 v 6 or 4+6 v 3 or 5+6 v 5 etc, the players will get a small card while dealer most likely makes the hand. From my experience, some casinos set the clump rate like this: 25% at $25 table, 33% at $15 table, 50% at $10 or $5 table. This will casinos edge over BS players and AP.

The AP would figure this (bogus) scenario out and crush the casino.