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Thread: Individual hand simulator?

  1. #1


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    Individual hand simulator?

    I would like to come up with a stronger indice chart for my counting method. Is there a simulator on the market where I can input the tag values of my counting method and simulate millions of rounds of a specific play of say double A7 vs 2 at +2 and then save the results and then simulate the same hand at say an indice of +3 to compare? I guess I would expect the program to simulate the TC by using a random method since different deck compositions can create the same TC.

    If this doesn't exist - Norm, since you're the software guy, does the development of this tool seem possible or reasonable to you?
    Last edited by UncleChoo; 08-27-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    I would like to come up with a stronger indice chart for my counting method. Is there a simulator on the market where I can input the tag values of my counting method and simulate millions of rounds of a specific play of say double A7 vs 2 at +2 and then save the results and then simulate the same hand at say an indice of +3 to compare. I guess I would expect the program to simulate the TC by using a random method since different deck compositions can create the same TC
    I have such a program I wrote for Zen. Once I retire playing BJ, I will let people have it. I also will make modifications so Hi-Lo, Halves, AO II, High Opt II players can have the information.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    I have such a program I wrote for Zen. Once I retire playing BJ, I will let people have it. I also will make modifications so Hi-Lo, Halves, AO II, High Opt II players can have the information.
    Zen, is the exact system I'm looking to simulate too. I'm using the old Snyder chart from early 80's. I know there are flaws there, but can't seem to find the proper way to fix them.
    If you don't mind me asking what was the coding language?

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    I would like to come up with a stronger indice chart for my counting method. Is there a simulator on the market where I can input the tag values of my counting method and simulate millions of rounds of a specific play of say double A7 vs 2 at +2 and then save the results and then simulate the same hand at say an indice of +3 to compare? I guess I would expect the program to simulate the TC by using a random method since different deck compositions can create the same TC.

    If this doesn't exist - Norm, since you're the software guy, does the development of this tool seem possible or reasonable to you?
    Do you understand there are at least a dozen places your time would be better spent, for blackjack alone? Hundreds if we expand to all AP? Almost anything is better than generating a "better" or "more accurate" index.

    To the person who said virtually no one here has been backed off or trespassed, I'd like to buy you a drink. Everyone here is an expert in jacking it though!

  5. #5
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    I would like to come up with a stronger indice chart for my counting method. Is there a simulator on the market where I can input the tag values of my counting method and simulate millions of rounds of a specific play of say double A7 vs 2 at +2 and then save the results and then simulate the same hand at say an indice of +3 to compare? I guess I would expect the program to simulate the TC by using a random method since different deck compositions can create the same TC.

    If this doesn't exist - Norm, since you're the software guy, does the development of this tool seem possible or reasonable to you?
    CVData, unless I misunderstand. But, that method would be too slow and it's much easier to use than this. You click off the indices you want and it runs tens of billions of hands to create them., applying risk-aversion if you wish
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    Do you understand there are at least a dozen places your time would be better spent, for blackjack alone? Hundreds if we expand to all AP? Almost anything is better than generating a "better" or "more accurate" index.
    I don't see how it would be a complete waste of time. There's big gaping holes in the indice chart I'm using. I would learn a lot with this side project. I would get a great visualization of the advantage/disadvantage for certain plays, that alone would be great for gaining an in-depth understanding. It sure wouldn't a bigger waste of time than practicing a +ev dice throw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    CVData, unless I misunderstand. But, that method would be too slow and it's much easier to use than this. You click off the indices you want and it runs tens of billions of hands to create them., applying risk-aversion if you wish
    Thanks, I don't think I'm using this tool for full value. I'll take another look through things.

  7. #7


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post

    Thanks, I don't think I'm using this tool for full value. I'll take another look through things.
    Gee, I misread the thread title, seeing it as Individual Hand Stimulator, thinking your comments seemed so apropo

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Gee, I misread the thread title, seeing it as Individual Hand Stimulator, thinking your comments seemed so apropo
    I've learned from Refinery's past comments and have high respect, but man, he's so quick to kick you in the chops.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    Zen, is the exact system I'm looking to simulate too. I'm using the old Snyder chart from early 80's. I know there are flaws there, but can't seem to find the proper way to fix them.
    If you don't mind me asking what was the coding language?
    Visual C++.

    The first column is A7 v 2. For example, at TC +3, Double gets 19.73 cents return while no double gets 15.1 cents return. At TC +2, Double gets 18.12 cents return while no double gets 14.22 cents return. Note that you risk $2 on the double bet, but only risk $1 on either Hit or Stand bet. But your double gets higher return at these two cases. So correct strategy is double at TC +2 and +3. Also I normalize my Zen to have similar indexes to Hi-Lo and Halves. TC = RC / number of half-decks. For example, for 6D, initially TC = RC / 12, not TC = RC / 6.

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=3.5
    [Win ] 119943 124215 132301 136311 141000 119171 96689 86991 285448 51537
    [Push] 19083 18539 18140 17616 16538 20821 36740 20568 70858 15211
    [Loss] 96138 92014 89950 86795 83099 84332 96394 122681 433309 70740
    [W-L] 23805 32201 42351 49516 57901 34839 295 -35690 -147861 -19203
    [W+P+L] 235164 234768 240391 240722 240637 224324 229823 230240 789615 137488
    [EV(%)] 10.12 13.72 17.62 20.57 24.06 15.53 0.1284 -15.5 -18.73 -13.97
    [EV2 ] 20.25 27.43 35.24 41.14 48.12 31.06 0.2567 -31 -37.45 -27.93
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=3.5
    [Win ] 119874 124215 132301 136311 141000 121384 98277 87199 286056 53077
    [Push] 19131 18539 18140 17616 16538 25479 41657 25560 80216 18319
    [Loss] 96159 92014 89950 86795 83099 77461 89889 117481 423343 66092
    [W-L] 23715 32201 42351 49516 57901 43923 8388 -30282 -137287 -13015
    [EV(%)] 10.08 13.72 17.62 20.57 24.06 19.58 3.65 -13.15 -17.39 -9.466
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=3.5
    [Win ] 120410 124980 133416 136564 146781 147221 82870 77178 264987 50939
    [Push] 29856 28744 27934 28125 24110 29396 89524 25053 89705 24689
    [Loss] 84898 81044 79041 76033 69746 47707 57429 128009 434923 61860
    [W-L] 35512 43936 54375 60531 77035 99514 25441 -50831 -169936 -10921
    [EV(%)] 15.1 18.71 22.62 25.15 32.01 44.36 11.07 -22.08 -21.52 -7.943
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=3.5
    [Win ] 120410 124980 133416 136564 146781 147221 82870 87199 286056 50939
    [Push] 29856 28744 27934 28125 24110 29396 89524 25560 80216 24689
    [Loss] 84898 81044 79041 76033 69746 47707 57429 117481 423343 61860
    [W-L] 35512 43936 54375 60531 77035 99514 25441 -30282 -137287 -10921
    [EV(%)] 15.1 18.71 22.62 25.15 32.01 44.36 11.07 -13.15 -17.39 -7.943

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=3
    [Win ] 140279 145297 155231 159332 165558 139141 114198 102789 340576 61313
    [Push] 22244 21700 21452 20864 19462 24433 42629 24020 84405 18129
    [Loss] 113092 109098 107324 103293 98629 100821 114808 144181 512242 85196
    [W-L] 27187 36199 47907 56039 66929 38320 -610 -41392 -171666 -23883
    [W+P+L] 275615 276095 284007 283489 283649 264395 271635 270990 937223 164638
    [EV(%)] 9.864 13.11 16.87 19.77 23.6 14.49 -0.2246 -15.27 -18.32 -14.51
    [EV2 ] 19.73 26.22 33.74 39.54 47.19 28.99 -0.4491 -30.55 -36.63 -29.01
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=3
    [Win ] 140183 145297 155231 159332 165558 142199 116191 103308 341378 63528
    [Push] 22363 21700 21452 20864 19462 30325 48713 30049 96272 21951
    [Loss] 113069 109098 107324 103293 98629 91871 106731 137633 499573 79159
    [W-L] 27114 36199 47907 56039 66929 50328 9460 -34325 -158195 -15631
    [EV(%)] 9.838 13.11 16.87 19.77 23.6 19.04 3.483 -12.67 -16.88 -9.494
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=3
    [Win ] 141126 146347 156130 158868 171708 172999 98236 91791 315835 60470
    [Push] 34984 34112 33704 33447 28821 34671 104505 29979 107395 29927
    [Loss] 99505 95636 94173 91174 83120 56725 68894 149220 513993 74241
    [W-L] 41621 50711 61957 67694 88588 116274 29342 -57429 -198158 -13771
    [EV(%)] 15.1 18.37 21.82 23.88 31.23 43.98 10.8 -21.19 -21.14 -8.364
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=3
    [Win ] 141126 146347 156130 158868 171708 172999 98236 103308 341378 60470
    [Push] 34984 34112 33704 33447 28821 34671 104505 30049 96272 29927
    [Loss] 99505 95636 94173 91174 83120 56725 68894 137633 499573 74241
    [W-L] 41621 50711 61957 67694 88588 116274 29342 -34325 -158195 -13771
    [EV(%)] 15.1 18.37 21.82 23.88 31.23 43.98 10.8 -12.67 -16.88 -8.364

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=2.5
    [Win ] 165640 171529 182068 185852 193059 164369 135125 123013 408971 73197
    [Push] 26728 25754 25258 24671 23435 28807 50086 28268 100737 21990
    [Loss] 135269 130079 127845 123084 118007 120074 136769 170478 612834 102271
    [W-L] 30371 41450 54223 62768 75052 44295 -1644 -47465 -203863 -29074
    [W+P+L] 327637 327362 335171 333607 334501 313250 321980 321759 1122542 197458
    [EV(%)] 9.27 12.66 16.18 18.81 22.44 14.14 -0.5106 -14.75 -18.16 -14.72
    [EV2 ] 18.54 25.32 32.36 37.63 44.87 28.28 -1.021 -29.5 -36.32 -29.45
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=2.5
    [Win ] 165543 171529 182068 185852 193059 168013 138022 123636 409570 76354
    [Push] 26944 25754 25258 24671 23435 35735 57304 35768 116014 26686
    [Loss] 135150 130079 127845 123084 118007 109502 126654 162355 596958 94418
    [W-L] 30393 41450 54223 62768 75052 58511 11368 -38719 -187388 -18064
    [EV(%)] 9.276 12.66 16.18 18.81 22.44 18.68 3.531 -12.03 -16.69 -9.148
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=2.5
    [Win ] 165949 172456 182747 185959 201367 203143 116844 109611 380717 72494
    [Push] 42140 40770 39793 39741 34013 41775 122988 36057 129829 35801
    [Loss] 119548 114136 112631 107907 99121 68332 82148 176091 611996 89163
    [W-L] 46401 58320 70116 78052 102246 134811 34696 -66480 -231279 -16669
    [EV(%)] 14.16 17.82 20.92 23.4 30.57 43.04 10.78 -20.66 -20.6 -8.442
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=2.5
    [Win ] 165949 172456 182747 185959 201367 203143 116844 123636 409570 72494
    [Push] 42140 40770 39793 39741 34013 41775 122988 35768 116014 35801
    [Loss] 119548 114136 112631 107907 99121 68332 82148 162355 596958 89163
    [W-L] 46401 58320 70116 78052 102246 134811 34696 -38719 -187388 -16669
    [EV(%)] 14.16 17.82 20.92 23.4 30.57 43.04 10.78 -12.03 -16.69 -8.442

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=2
    [Win ] 187999 193485 203824 209804 217880 185141 154780 140917 471638 83752
    [Push] 30586 29518 28684 27979 26128 32273 55905 32506 114716 24853
    [Loss] 154218 149139 145624 141455 134410 138228 156444 193547 703933 118614
    [W-L] 33781 44346 58200 68349 83470 46913 -1664 -52630 -232295 -34862
    [W+P+L] 372803 372142 378132 379238 378418 355642 367129 366970 1290287 227219
    [EV(%)] 9.061 11.92 15.39 18.02 22.06 13.19 -0.4532 -14.34 -18 -15.34
    [EV2 ] 18.12 23.83 30.78 36.05 44.12 26.38 -0.9065 -28.68 -36.01 -30.69
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=2
    [Win ] 187778 193485 203824 209804 217880 190294 158566 142236 471973 87807
    [Push] 31032 29518 28684 27979 26128 40524 64490 41399 136069 30326
    [Loss] 153993 149139 145624 141455 134410 124824 144073 183335 682245 109086
    [W-L] 33785 44346 58200 68349 83470 65470 14493 -41099 -210272 -21279
    [EV(%)] 9.062 11.92 15.39 18.02 22.06 18.41 3.948 -11.2 -16.3 -9.365
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=2
    [Win ] 188796 194291 204670 210221 226690 230109 134110 126120 440502 83226
    [Push] 48228 47378 45590 45201 39332 47309 139387 41078 149944 41372
    [Loss] 135779 130473 127872 123816 112396 78224 93632 199772 699841 102621
    [W-L] 53017 63818 76798 86405 114294 151885 40478 -73652 -259339 -19395
    [EV(%)] 14.22 17.15 20.31 22.78 30.2 42.71 11.03 -20.07 -20.1 -8.536
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=2
    [Win ] 188796 194291 204670 210221 226690 230109 134110 142236 471973 83226
    [Push] 48228 47378 45590 45201 39332 47309 139387 41399 136069 41372
    [Loss] 135779 130473 127872 123816 112396 78224 93632 183335 682245 102621
    [W-L] 53017 63818 76798 86405 114294 151885 40478 -41099 -210272 -19395
    [EV(%)] 14.22 17.15 20.31 22.78 30.2 42.71 11.03 -11.2 -16.3 -8.536

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 195629 201867 212186 217738 226513 194746 163805 148766 503594 88406
    [Push] 31798 30877 30179 29312 27735 33650 58101 33481 122071 26384
    [Loss] 163396 157962 154561 149294 142733 145776 166193 204327 745125 127080
    [W-L] 32233 43905 57625 68444 83780 48970 -2388 -55561 -241531 -38674
    [W+P+L] 390823 390706 396926 396344 396981 374172 388099 386574 1370790 241870
    [EV(%)] 8.247 11.24 14.52 17.27 21.1 13.09 -0.6153 -14.37 -17.62 -15.99
    [EV2 ] 16.49 22.47 29.04 34.54 42.21 26.18 -1.231 -28.75 -35.24 -31.98
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 195284 201851 212186 217738 226513 199897 167650 150654 504303 92903
    [Push] 32543 30897 30179 29312 27735 42481 67444 42810 147063 32428
    [Loss] 162996 157958 154561 149294 142733 131794 153005 193110 719424 116539
    [W-L] 32288 43893 57625 68444 83780 68103 14645 -42456 -215121 -23636
    [EV(%)] 8.262 11.23 14.52 17.27 21.1 18.2 3.774 -10.98 -15.69 -9.772
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 196543 203082 213542 218443 236099 241125 142439 133150 470582 87920
    [Push] 51347 49909 48206 47419 41535 49787 145414 44068 160362 44597
    [Loss] 142933 137715 135178 130482 119347 83260 100246 209356 739846 109353
    [W-L] 53610 65367 78364 87961 116752 157865 42193 -76206 -269264 -21433
    [EV(%)] 13.72 16.73 19.74 22.19 29.41 42.19 10.87 -19.71 -19.64 -8.861
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 196543 203082 213542 218443 236099 241125 142439 150654 504303 87920
    [Push] 51347 49909 48206 47419 41535 49787 145414 42810 147063 44597
    [Loss] 142933 137715 135178 130482 119347 83260 100246 193110 719424 109353
    [W-L] 53610 65367 78364 87961 116752 157865 42193 -42456 -215121 -21433
    [EV(%)] 13.72 16.73 19.74 22.19 29.41 42.19 10.87 -10.98 -15.69 -8.861
    Last edited by BJGenius007; 08-28-2019 at 04:54 AM.

  10. #10


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    Lol

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Visual C++.

    The first column is A7 v 2. For example, at TC +3, Double gets 19.73 cents return while no double gets 15.1 cents return. At TC +2, Double gets 18.12 cents return while no double gets 14.22 cents return. Note that you risk $2 on the double bet, but only risk $1 on either Hit or Stand bet. But your double gets higher return at these two cases. So correct strategy is double at TC +2 and +3. Also I normalize my Zen to have similar indexes to Hi-Lo and Halves. TC = RC / number of half-decks. For example, for 6D, initially TC = RC / 12, not TC = RC / 6.
    If you want to find out ev on A7 v 2 at TC +3, +2 for traditional Zen, you may need to look up at +1.5, +1 at my table since I use half-deck resolution.

    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 195629 201867 212186 217738 226513 194746 163805 148766 503594 88406
    [Push] 31798 30877 30179 29312 27735 33650 58101 33481 122071 26384
    [Loss] 163396 157962 154561 149294 142733 145776 166193 204327 745125 127080
    [W-L] 32233 43905 57625 68444 83780 48970 -2388 -55561 -241531 -38674
    [W+P+L] 390823 390706 396926 396344 396981 374172 388099 386574 1370790 241870
    [EV(%)] 8.247 11.24 14.52 17.27 21.1 13.09 -0.6153 -14.37 -17.62 -15.99
    [EV2 ] 16.49 22.47 29.04 34.54 42.21 26.18 -1.231 -28.75 -35.24 -31.98
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 195284 201851 212186 217738 226513 199897 167650 150654 504303 92903
    [Push] 32543 30897 30179 29312 27735 42481 67444 42810 147063 32428
    [Loss] 162996 157958 154561 149294 142733 131794 153005 193110 719424 116539
    [W-L] 32288 43893 57625 68444 83780 68103 14645 -42456 -215121 -23636
    [EV(%)] 8.262 11.23 14.52 17.27 21.1 18.2 3.774 -10.98 -15.69 -9.772
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 196543 203082 213542 218443 236099 241125 142439 133150 470582 87920
    [Push] 51347 49909 48206 47419 41535 49787 145414 44068 160362 44597
    [Loss] 142933 137715 135178 130482 119347 83260 100246 209356 739846 109353
    [W-L] 53610 65367 78364 87961 116752 157865 42193 -76206 -269264 -21433
    [EV(%)] 13.72 16.73 19.74 22.19 29.41 42.19 10.87 -19.71 -19.64 -8.861
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=1.5
    [Win ] 196543 203082 213542 218443 236099 241125 142439 150654 504303 87920
    [Push] 51347 49909 48206 47419 41535 49787 145414 42810 147063 44597
    [Loss] 142933 137715 135178 130482 119347 83260 100246 193110 719424 109353
    [W-L] 53610 65367 78364 87961 116752 157865 42193 -42456 -215121 -21433
    [EV(%)] 13.72 16.73 19.74 22.19 29.41 42.19 10.87 -10.98 -15.69 -8.861


    Side Count Neutral. Double: TC=1
    [Win ] 221189 228683 239316 245682 255626 220549 186649 170239 585232 102532
    [Push] 36286 35360 33901 33158 31249 38748 65520 38779 140521 30867
    [Loss] 187546 181430 176504 170669 163777 167121 190831 233997 858742 147487
    [W-L] 33643 47253 62812 75013 91849 53428 -4182 -63758 -273510 -44955
    [W+P+L] 445021 445473 449721 449509 450652 426418 443000 443015 1584495 280886
    [EV(%)] 7.56 10.61 13.97 16.69 20.38 12.53 -0.944 -14.39 -17.26 -16
    [EV2 ] 15.12 21.21 27.93 33.38 40.76 25.06 -1.888 -28.78 -34.52 -32.01
    Side Count Neutral. Hit: TC=1
    [Win ] 220777 228571 239316 245682 255626 226633 191768 172801 586755 108470
    [Push] 37478 35589 33901 33158 31249 48901 76254 49882 170240 38075
    [Loss] 186766 181313 176504 170669 163777 150884 174978 220332 827500 134341
    [W-L] 34011 47258 62812 75013 91849 75749 16790 -47531 -240745 -25871
    [EV(%)] 7.643 10.61 13.97 16.69 20.38 17.76 3.79 -10.73 -15.19 -9.21
    Side Count Neutral. Stand: TC=1
    [Win ] 222934 230203 240867 245743 267384 272934 163354 153391 547421 101932
    [Push] 59238 57399 55178 54175 47354 57207 164805 51128 186998 52137
    [Loss] 162849 157871 153676 149591 135914 96277 114841 238496 850076 126817
    [W-L] 60085 72332 87191 96152 131470 176657 48513 -85105 -302655 -24885
    [EV(%)] 13.5 16.24 19.39 21.39 29.17 41.43 10.95 -19.21 -19.1 -8.859
    Side Count Neutral. No Double: TC=1
    [Win ] 222934 230203 240867 245743 267384 272934 163354 172801 586755 101932
    [Push] 59238 57399 55178 54175 47354 57207 164805 49882 170240 52137
    [Loss] 162849 157871 153676 149591 135914 96277 114841 220332 827500 126817
    [W-L] 60085 72332 87191 96152 131470 176657 48513 -47531 -240745 -24885
    [EV(%)] 13.5 16.24 19.39 21.39 29.17 41.43 10.95 -10.73 -15.19 -8.859

  12. #12


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    I think there's a typo on line 37

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    I've learned from Refinery's past comments and have high respect, but man, he's so quick to kick you in the chops.
    I'm not intentionally kicking anyone on the chops (usually). My attempt is at an economy of words while drilling down to the actual issue.

    Look: if it's a matter of you wanting to learn more indexes, by all means. CVData will do that, and you should have probably known that. I'm a big fan of learning as many as possible, because for me, it takes little energy to do so.

    HOWEVER: It sounded like you wanted to create a better way of generating indexes (whatever that means):

    I would like to come up with a stronger indice chart for my counting method.


    In any event, it's all pretty meaningless. You just won't get much gain there. I was pretty clear when I said there were a dozen ways just to improve your blackjack today. I'll give you one for free:

    Lock yourself in a room and improve your deck estimation. You will get more from that than adding indexes or generating "stronger" ones.

    Congrats, UncleChoo! Now my next dozen posts need to be only a few words.
    Last edited by refinery; 08-28-2019 at 06:09 AM.

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About Blackjack: The Forum

BJTF is an advantage player site based on the principles of comity. That is, civil and considerate behavior for the mutual benefit of all involved. The goal of advantage play is the legal extraction of funds from gaming establishments by gaining a mathematic advantage and developing the skills required to use that advantage. To maximize our success, it is important to understand that we are all on the same side. Personal conflicts simply get in the way of our goals.