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Thread: KO with one side count, 5m7c, on par with HO2 w ASC for shoe game, no side counts

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    KO with one side count, 5m7c, on par with HO2 w ASC for shoe game, no side counts

    I listened to what everyone said about KO with 5m7c and AA89mTc being way too difficult. So my solution is if no side bets are offered, then use just KO with 5m7c. If Lucky Ladies is offered then use KO with AA89mTc since the LL bet has big edges for the player. So I published on Xlibris website KO with 5m7c and AA89mTc for $3,99 for the online book if you are interested in details. So I am not going into any details here and will just list a very short summary which is easy for anyone to use. I also refuse to get into any heated exchanges with other users. If you do not like KO with 5m7c then keep on using HO2 w ASC. The casino I go to near me has $5 blackjack seven days a week and some $10 tables also. It has S17, DAS, Late Surrender, five out of six decks dealt, Lucky Ladies and Super 4. It is a very good game.

    The 5m7c and AA89mTc used with the KO in analyzing the S17 (dealer Stands on soft 17) six and eight deck blackjack games was analyzed. If only one side count is to bekept and there are no side bets, use KO with 5m7c. If only one side count is to be kept and Lucky Ladies or Super 4 side bets are offered use KO with KO with AA89mTc. dp = decks played, dr = decks remaining, n =number of decks, tc = true count, crc = critical running count. For all playing strategy deviations notmentioned in the summaries below, use the KO indices, which indices are almost identical to the High-Low indices. Gronbog's simulation results showed that that the KO with 5m7c and AA89mTc outperformed the Hi-Opt 2with Ace side count (HO2 w ASC) for all scenarios for both the no late surrender and late surrender game. Although no simulations were done for KO with 5m7c alone, based onsimulations that were done, I estimated (covered in KO with 5m7c and AA89mTc book) that KO with 5m7c is approximately on par with HO2 w ASC.

    I apologize for formatting and numbering being off but you can still follow the results.

    KO with AA89mTc summary - use if Lucky Ladies is offered

    1. brc = betting running count = KO
    2. Tc = Ten count = LLc = Lucky Lady count = irc = insurance running count = KO + AA89mTc.


    1. Bet $5 on LL on as many hands as possible if 4*n ? Tc < 4*n + 6.
      1. For n = 6 decks, bet $5 when 24 ? Tc < 30.
      2. For n = 8 decks, bet $5 when 32 ? Tc < 38.


    1. Start increasing LL bet from $5 up to its maximum on $25 on as many hands as possible when Tc ? 4*n + 6, the actual LL bet depending on Tc and whether you are winning or losing.
      1. For n = 6 decks, start increasing LL bet when Tc > 30.
      2. For n = 8 decks, start increasing LL bet when Tc > 38.


    1. Super 4 count = S4c = KO - ½*(AA89mTc).


    1. Bet $5 Super 4 whenever S4c ? crc(4) = 4*n.
      1. For n = 6 decks, bet Super 4 whenever S4c > 24.
      2. For n = 8 decks, bet Super 4 whenever S4c > 32.


    1. Major KO with AA89mTc Playing Strategy Changes (use KO with no side counts for all other strategy changes). Critical running counts corresponding to a true count index can be mentally “looked up” in the Table of Critical Running count or can be computed from a formula.
      1. Insure if Tc > crc(4) = 4*n
      2. Stand on hard 12 v 2 if Tc > crc(4) = 4*n
      3. Stand on hard 12 v 3 if Tc > crc(2) = 4*n – 2*dr
      4. Stand on hard 12 v 4 if Tc > crc(0) = 4*dp
      5. Stand on hard 12 v 5 if Tc > crc(-2) = 4*dp – 2*dr
      6. Hit hard 12 v 6
        1. If tc(KO) = 0 and AA89mTc < (-1)*dr
        2. If tc(KO) = 2 and AA89mTc < (-2)*dr
        3. If tc(KO) = 4 and AA89mTc < (-3)*dr


    KO with 5m7c summary - use if no side bets

    1. brc = betting running count = KO + ½*(5m7c)

    Major KO + k*(5m7c) Playing Strategy Changes (use KO with no side counts for all other strategy changes). Critical running counts corresponding to atrue count index can be mentally “looked up” in the Table of Critical Running count or can be computed from a formula.

    1. If KO = crc(4) = 4*n then
      1. Stand on hard 15 v 7 if 5m7c > 4*dr
      2. Stand on hard 15 v 8 if 5m7c > 3*dr
      3. Stand on hard 15 v 9 if 5m7c > 2*dr
      4. Stand on hard 16 v 7 if 5m7c > 2*dr
      5. Stand on hard 16 v 8 if 5m7c > 1.5*dr
      6. Stand on hard 16 v 9 if 5m7c > dr



    1. If KO = crc(2) then add (1/2) to the 5m7c indices in (1) above.
    2. If KO = crc(6) then subtract (1/2) from the 5m7c indices in (1) above.



    1. Stand on hard 14 v T if KO – 1.5*(5m7c) > crc(7)
    2. Stand on hard 15 v T if KO + ½*(5m7c) > crc(4) = 4*n
    3. Stand on hard 16 v T if KO + 5m7c > crc(0) = 4*dp


    Late Surrender
    i.
    Surrender hard 16 v 8 if KO + 2*(5m7c) > crc(4)
    ii. Surrender hard 15 v 8 if KO + 1.5*(5m7c) > crc(7)
    iii. Surrender hard 15 v 9 if KO + 1.5*(5m7c) > crc(2)
    iv.
    Surrender hard 15 v A if KO + 2*(5m7c) > crc(2)
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2019 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #2


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    Oh shit!

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Oh shit!
    Last Friday, KO was 30 and AA89mTc was 15 so Lucky Ladies counts, LLc = Tc (Ten Count) was 45. For the six deck game, you start increasing LL bet when LLc > 30. Lucky Ladies bet can have big edge. I should have been betting $25 on LL but I did not bring much money with me and was losing so I cut my bets back. Because LL has a lot of variablitiy and I was losing I bet only $10 on LL. I got very lucky and got QHQH with dealer blackjack. I got $10K but they took out $2,400 for taxes. I was VERY lucky. But LL bet has big edges, often over 10% or even 20%. But even with large edges, the chances of losing any lucky ladies bet is around 85% so you still have to be very careful how much you bet on LL because of the high variability.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #4


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    Return of Bjanalyst!

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Return of Bjanalyst!
    Attached is my estimate that KO with 5m7c is bascially on par with HO2 with ASC. KO + (1/2)*(5m7c) has the same betting efficiency as the difficult level 3 Wong's Halves but has better playing effienecy as hit helps with hiit/stand hard 15 and hard 16 v 7, 8, 9, T and with late surrender hard 15 and hard 16 v 8, 9, T and A, smoehting whiich Wong Halve cannot do as the counts are not sparated, The issue of complexity has een addresses here as both KO and 5m7c are simple level one coutns that are very easy to keep and the KO with it's pivot at a true count of 4 give very accurate true counts near its pivot which is where large bets are made.

    So attached is my estimate, based on Gronbog's simulations actually performed, that KO with 5m7c is approximately equal to the more complicated HO2 w ASC.

    I would like to make this very clear. Gronbog never did a separate simulation of KO with 5m7c so I do not have a definite answer on how KO with 5m7c performs against the HO2 w ASC. This estimate I mentioned above is my estimate and not Gronbog’s. I feel that estimate is reasonable, but it is just that, an estimate, and I cannot guarantee that the estimate is correct.
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    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2019 at 12:49 PM.

  6. #6


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    Here is my estimate of KO with 5m7c for no late surrender

    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Return of Bjanalyst!
    I gave my estaimte for KO with 5m7c for late surrender which showed that KO with 5m7c beat HO2 w ASC.

    I got chopped off witih KO with 5m7c for no late surrender. For no late surrender, HO2 w ASC very slightly outperforms KO with 5m7c but when back counting they are basically equal.

    So this addresses your concerns about the complexity of KO with 5m7c and AA89mTc.

    If no side bets, like Lucky Ladies, and just regular blackjack then use KO with 5m7c. For the LS game, KO with 5m7c slightly beats HO2 w ASC and for the no late surrender game HO2 w ASC slightly beats KO with 5m7c.

    Considering the simplicity and true count accuracy near its pivot of a true count of 4 of KO with 5m7c, for regular blackjack with no Lucky Ladies, use KO with 5m7c.
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    Last edited by bjanalyst; 08-14-2019 at 01:11 PM.

  7. #7


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Did you not learn anything from last time!?

    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    Attached is my estimate that KO with 5m7c is bascially on par with HO2 with ASC. KO + (1/2)*(5m7c) has the same betting efficiency as the difficult level 3 Wong's Halves but has better playing effienecy as hit helps with hiit/stand hard 15 and hard 16 v 7, 8, 9, T and with late surrender hard 15 and hard 16 v 8, 9, T and A, smoehting whiich Wong Halve cannot do as the counts are not sparated, The issue of complexity has een addresses here as both KO and 5m7c are simple level one coutns that are very easy to keep and the KO with it's pivot at a true count of 4 give very accurate true counts near its pivot which is where large bets are made.

    So attached is my estimate, based on Gronbog's simulations actually performed, that KO with 5m7c is approximately equal to the more complicated HO2 w ASC.

    I would like to make this very clear. Gronbog never did a separate simulation of KO with 5m7c so I do not have a definite answer on how KO with 5m7c performs against the HO2 w ASC. This estimate I mentioned above is my estimate and not Gronbog’s. I feel that estimate is reasonable, but it is just that, an estimate, and I cannot guarantee that the estimate is correct.
    aaa1.jpg
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    bb1.jpg
    Introducing the Dogman Count


    The dogman Count is a level 2 count with 9 independent side counts. This allows for near perfect play with a BD of 0.99, a PE of 0.93, and a IC of 1.00!

    We start with a simple balanced Ten count with point tags [A-T] : <0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2>. This allows us to have near perfect insurance when it comes to accounting for it per dealer Ace up-card! To increase efficiency for Insurance, and ASC is recommended. In addition to the ASC, we will use it for accounting for drawing to doubling on all hands given. Dogman also recommends using the 6, 7, 8, and 9 side counts to get the best of all stiff draw hands. The 4 and 5 side count allows extra betting efficiency while allowing you to beat HOII with ASC & 7SC!!!! A 2, 3 side count is needed to account for drawing on all soft totals over 17.

    Sim results show that side counting all ranks allows us to play nearly perfect play and betting! Side counting all ranks is pathetically easy and anyone who is a real card-couter (and not those level one "counters" to give themselves away so easlily at the table!) can master this in less than an hour! This even beats the Tarzan/DHMC system(s) and is close to that of Eric Farmers and MGP's BJCA's! It so easy, my friend Freightman (who is not as bright as I am) learned it and is using it as part of his FBM ASC!

    Gronbog's sims demonstrate that the overal SCORE is 6.02*10^23!!! Take that HOII with ASC & 7SC!

    I would like to point out that I have always been right and that no one here can disprove me as I am very smart!


  8. #8


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Did you not learn anything from last time!?


    Introducing the Dogman Count


    The dogman Count is a level 2 count with 9 independent side counts. This allows for near perfect play with a BD of 0.99, a PE of 0.93, and a IC of 1.00!

    We start with a simple balanced Ten count with point tags [A-T] : <0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2>. This allows us to have near perfect insurance when it comes to accounting for it per dealer Ace up-card! To increase efficiency for Insurance, and ASC is recommended. In addition to the ASC, we will use it for accounting for drawing to doubling on all hands given. Dogman also recommends using the 6, 7, 8, and 9 side counts to get the best of all stiff draw hands. The 4 and 5 side count allows extra betting efficiency while allowing you to beat HOII with ASC & 7SC!!!! A 2, 3 side count is needed to account for drawing on all soft totals over 17.

    Sim results show that side counting all ranks allows us to play nearly perfect play and betting! Side counting all ranks is pathetically easy and anyone who is a real card-couter (and not those level one "counters" to give themselves away so easlily at the table!) can master this in less than an hour! This even beats the Tarzan/DHMC system(s) and is close to that of Eric Farmers and MGP's BJCA's! It so easy, my friend Freightman (who is not as bright as I am) learned it and is using it as part of his FBM ASC!

    Gronbog's sims demonstrate that the overal SCORE is 6.02*10^23!!! Take that HOII with ASC & 7SC!

    I would like to point out that I have always been right and that no one here can disprove me as I am very smart!

    Excellent commentary, especially your thoughts regarding the FBM ASC. I still haven’t decided yet whether or not I will see Don on my upcoming New York trip. He has been pestering me on nuances to the FBM ASC, for inclusion in his upcoming BJA4.

    I was also fascinated by your comments regarding 6,7,8 and 9 side counts. The possibilities for improvement to play are endless.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Excellent commentary, especially your thoughts regarding the FBM ASC. I still haven’t decided yet whether or not I will see Don on my upcoming New York trip. He has been pestering me on nuances to the FBM ASC, for inclusion in his upcoming BJA4.

    I was also fascinated by your comments regarding 6,7,8 and 9 side counts. The possibilities for improvement to play are endless.
    Quite innumerable, my friend!

    With regard to the 6,7,8,9 independent side counts, one is here forewarned on the practical implications of perfect play on stiff hands. While you are gaining near perfect efficiency with respect to the middle card side counts, one is also at risk of errors. Hence, why only "real, serious counter only!" applies to the Dogman count.

    A quick trip through ToBJ 6th Edition will render the reader *more* prepared to attack the game and palce them in the coveted 0.1% of players who are "professional" in their own right.

  10. #10


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    I actually took you off ignore for a few days, Freightman, but then you've started the bullshit talking about your balls and you're right back on. It literally took 3 days for me to remember why I put you on ignore in the first place.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    I actually took you off ignore for a few days, Freightman, but then you've started the bullshit talking about your balls and you're right back on. It literally took 3 days for me to remember why I put you on ignore in the first place.
    Mr. Congeniality opens his trap again. Do me a favour and put me back on ignore. If it helps matters, go fuck yourself.

  12. #12


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by refinery View Post
    I actually took you off ignore for a few days, Freightman, but then you've started the bullshit talking about your balls and you're right back on. It literally took 3 days for me to remember why I put you on ignore in the first place.
    Don't blame our northern neighbor for that one. He was given an opening he could not resist by Dogman. :-)

    Oops. I see that Freightman has already replied. I guess my role as peacekeeper has been thwarted.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPloppy View Post
    Don't blame our northern neighbor for that one. He was given an opening he could not resist by Dogman. :-)

    Oops. I see that Freightman has already replied. I guess my role as peacekeeper has been thwarted.
    Appreciate the thought. The dickwad has been expressing his messages of peace and joy to numerous induviduals lately, giving superior renditions of. negativity. I thought I would support his commentary in a simple and direct manner.

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