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Thread: Side counts with zen?

  1. #1


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    Side counts with zen?

    Do any of you think it would be worth while incorporating a side count with zen? I feel I'm ready to tackle a single side count, but not sure what side count would have the most value. Figure, I'm already counting
    aces at -1 to get the higher BC, so wouldn't think that would be where to side count. Or, if wanted to side count aces, I'd just be better off adjusting to AOII using an ace side count. I read people on here side counting
    sevens for a higher PE (I think?). If I started side counting sevens, how do you go about figuring out how to actually use the extra information I acquired. Wouldn't I have to adjust all the zen BS deviations. Is the extra
    bang even worth the hassle?

  2. #2


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    Are you playing mostly pitch or shoe. What do you want to achieve. You seem to be very eager, which is good. However, it might be an idea to make yourself absolutely perfect, and automatic, and carrying on with your persona, at what you’re currently doing, before looking at sidecounts.

    If you are still interested in an ace sidecount, consider the much regaled FBM ASC. My wife and I will be in New York in a few weeks, and Don has been chasing me to discuss nuances for the FBM ASC, for inclusion in the upcoming BJA4. Seriously though, I’ve changed my mind many times on different side counts, and for different reasons.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Are you playing mostly pitch or shoe. What do you want to achieve. You seem to be very eager, which is good. However, it might be an idea to make yourself absolutely perfect, and automatic, and carrying on with your persona, at what you’re currently doing, before looking at sidecounts.

    If you are still interested in an ace sidecount, consider the much regaled FBM ASC. My wife and I will be in New York in a few weeks, and Don has been chasing me to discuss nuances for the FBM ASC, for inclusion in the upcoming BJA4. Seriously though, I’ve changed my mind many times on different side counts, and for different reasons.
    I'm only playing 6D shoe games DAS LS H17. It would be a while before tried executing any side counts live, but thought about practicing one at home on Casino Vertite. It took me a long time before was able to actually use zen live so wouldn't expect it to be any different using a sidercount

  4. #4


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    The more I think about it there wouldn't be much value side counting a 7. It seems like it's as neutral as a card as you can get. Neither a bust card or a power card plus it's already assigned +1. I would think maybe side counting an 8 or a 9 would be better. Since it's going to bust more hands than a seven. This is my elementary logic thinking though. I think the goal would be to achieve better strategies when stiff facing an 7 or 8 in middle range TC -3 through +3. I think finding the proper side count to deviate from these auto hits would add nice to any advantage you acquire form the ground zero counting strategy. Griffin probably has the answer somewhere in theroy of bj, or maybe even Don addresses this in BJ Attack which is sitting in mailbox because out of town.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleChoo View Post
    The more I think about it there wouldn't be much value side counting a 7. It seems like it's as neutral as a card as you can get. Neither a bust card or a power card plus it's already assigned +1. I would think maybe side counting an 8 or a 9 would be better. Since it's going to bust more hands than a seven. This is my elementary logic thinking though. I think the goal would be to achieve better strategies when stiff facing an 7 or 8 in middle range TC -3 through +3. I think finding the proper side count to deviate from these auto hits would add nice to any advantage you acquire form the ground zero counting strategy. Griffin probably has the answer somewhere in theroy of bj, or maybe even Don addresses this in BJ Attack which is sitting in mailbox because out of town.
    7 is a good sidecount card at pitch, but has a lesser effect at shoe. I side counted 9’s at one point, the main reason being the 12 v 2 at counts equal or greater than +3 - standard index play being to pass v hit, but where a surplus calls for hit. It was great when it happened, but frequency was low, therefore long term value was low. It also had some value since, as a counted card at halves, there was some leeway afforded to insurance where strike point is + 3.4.

    Halves is ace reckoned, so counting aces for bc is basically a waste if time. However, that ace count can be applied to several situations, which I’ll let you figure out what they are, which as a result makes it a very worthwhile card to count.

    They’re other twists, but this is way more than enough for now.
    Last edited by Freightman; 08-13-2019 at 01:58 PM.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    7 is a good sidecount card at pitch, but has a lesser effect at shoe. I side counted 9’s at one point, the main reason being the 12 v 2 at counts equal or greater than +3 - standard index play being to pass v hit, but where a surplus calls for hit. It was great when it happened, but frequency was low, therefore long term value was low. It also had some value since, as a counted card at halves, there was some leeway afforded to insurance where strike point is + 3.4.

    Halves is ace reckoned, so counting aces for bc is basically a waste if time. However, that ace count can be applied to several situations, which I’ll let you figure out what they are, which as a result makes it a very worthwhile card to count.

    They’re other twists, but this is way more than enough for now.
    Thanks Freightman! I'll explore further with Ace side counts. You're helping to point me in the right direction and that's enough to as launching pad. Have fires going on at work so have to shift priorities over the next few hours ha ha

  7. #7
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    If you're going to side count Aces you should use a count like AO2 or Hi-Opt-2. For years many used Hi-Opt 1 with Ace side count and sometimes also a side of 7's. It is sub-optimal to use an Ace Sidecount in a system that already counts Aces.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    If you're going to side count Aces you should use a count like AO2 or Hi-Opt-2. For years many used Hi-Opt 1 with Ace side count and sometimes also a side of 7's. It is sub-optimal to use an Ace Sidecount in a system that already counts Aces.
    True enough that ace side count is most efficient on ace neutral counts. Also true enough that ace sidecount has no real betting benefit on ace reckoned counts.

    It’s also true that knowledge of ace surplus or deficit is a valuable item even in an ace reckoned count. Good examples would be an adjustment of threshold for taking or not taking insurance, 10 v 10 doubles, 99 v 7 splits, etc.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigplayer View Post
    If you're going to side count Aces you should use a count like AO2 or Hi-Opt-2. For years many used Hi-Opt 1 with Ace side count and sometimes also a side of 7's. It is sub-optimal to use an Ace Sidecount in a system that already counts Aces.
    I do realize this. I think I'm getting ahead of myself about trying to worry about how to use the sidecount. As of now, I'm just going to practice efficiently maintaining a side count. Once I have the ability to maintain a side count without looking like a focused surgeon hard at work I'll worry about what card to side count and how to use the info.

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