Tells of a dealer possibly dealing seconds?

**Jacblacc911** · 07-31-2019, 02:40 PM

Are there any tell tale signs if a dealer is possibly dealing seconds?

Scenario: I enter this casino, it is virtually empty (midweek in the evening so maybe normal), no staff to be seen. Then a man appears, I ask him if I can play BJ, he agrees. He goes into a room somewhere, brings out a stack of 6 decks, then straight away offers me to cut.
I cut. He then places the cut card at 0.5decks cutoff (Normally I would be salivating at the mouth, but something doesn't seem quite right: Why does every other casino (10+ others) in this town give 55% pen and this one place is giving me 90%). Anyway, he tells me 2 spots minimum and he starts to deal. After a few rounds he is fiddling with the shoe, like he can't find a comfortable position to have it while drawing cards. Eventually it is literally right next to his waist, left hand constantly on the mouth of the shoe and right hand drawing the cards. As he is dealing he is quite controlled/robotic and looks nervous.
The pace is normal until I decide to surrender my 12 vs 10 (a deliberate error). He hesitates and picks up the cards then comes back to my second hand (17), which I stand on and he busts with 25. He is then hesitant for a few seconds before dealing the next round...I look up at him, he doesn't make eye contact as if he is in deep thought. (just my observations).
He eventually continues to deal the rest of the shoe. I only play min bet and lose the majority of my hands to dealer 20. What I lost is irrelevant, but the whole situation just didn't seem right, in particular where he had the shoe so close to him, 1 hand constantly on top of the mouth of the shoe etc.

Rumours of cheating I had heard about in this area before going so that bias was in the back of my mind.

**Freightman** · 07-31-2019, 03:46 PM

Interesting. If everything is as you say, how do you prove it? And if as you say, it was, then when surrendering 12v10, as Bobby Axelrod said to Ben Kim, well fucking done!

**DSchles** · 07-31-2019, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jacblacc911

Are there any tell tale signs if a dealer is possibly dealing seconds?

Scenario: I enter this casino, it is virtually empty (midweek in the evening so maybe normal), no staff to be seen. Then a man appears, I ask him if I can play BJ, he agrees. He goes into a room somewhere, brings out a stack of 6 decks, then straight away offers me to cut.
I cut. He then places the cut card at 0.5decks cutoff (Normally I would be salivating at the mouth, but something doesn't seem quite right: Why does every other casino (10+ others) in this town give 55% pen and this one place is giving me 90%). Anyway, he tells me 2 spots minimum and he starts to deal. After a few rounds he is fiddling with the shoe, like he can't find a comfortable position to have it while drawing cards. Eventually it is literally right next to his waist, left hand constantly on the mouth of the shoe and right hand drawing the cards. As he is dealing he is quite controlled/robotic and looks nervous.
The pace is normal until I decide to surrender my 12 vs 10 (a deliberate error). He hesitates and picks up the cards then comes back to my second hand (17), which I stand on and he busts with 25. He is then hesitant for a few seconds before dealing the next round...I look up at him, he doesn't make eye contact as if he is in deep thought. (just my observations).
He eventually continues to deal the rest of the shoe. I only play min bet and lose the majority of my hands to dealer 20. What I lost is irrelevant, but the whole situation just didn't seem right, in particular where he had the shoe so close to him, 1 hand constantly on top of the mouth of the shoe etc.

Rumours of cheating I had heard about in this area before going so that bias was in the back of my mind.

There certainly is such a thing as a gaffed shoe from which a dealer can deal seconds. It involves a mirror to reveal the next card coming out, and then the ability to deal or not deal that card, the same as when hand-dealing seconds. Google the concept.

Certainly a possibility that that is what was going on.

Don

**Freightman** · 07-31-2019, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

There certainly is such a thing as a gaffed shoe from which a dealer can deal seconds. It involves a mirror to reveal the next card coming out, and then the ability to deal or not deal that card, the same as when hand-dealing seconds. Google the concept.

Certainly a possibility that that is what was going on.

Don

I have a book which describes the texture of face cards vs low value cards coming out of the shoe as being different. Cheating had occurred at some exotic Central American location.

**DoubleDownSoft21** · 07-31-2019, 07:03 PM

Dealers are taught to keep their left hand over the mouth of the shoe for game protection.

**refinery** · 07-31-2019, 09:38 PM

You're not in the US, correct? Somewhere in Asia?

**ummagumma** · 08-01-2019, 01:30 AM

TBH, I think you asked for it. The cards should at least have been shuffled and immediately you smelt a rat you should have left. You can't be pushed around by a dealer like you were.

**Jacblacc911** · 08-01-2019, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by DSchles

There certainly is such a thing as a gaffed shoe from which a dealer can deal seconds. It involves a mirror to reveal the next card coming out, and then the ability to deal or not deal that card, the same as when hand-dealing seconds. Google the concept.

Certainly a possibility that that is what was going on.

Don

I just saw a video on youtube by 'cardshark' who demos dealing seconds from a shoe. All I can say is where his left hand is positioned is exactly how my dealer had his hand positioned. I have seen dealers with their left hand next to the shoe before but usually it is by the bottom of the lip/mouth of the shoe, in contact with the felt.

**Jacblacc911** · 08-01-2019, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by refinery

You're not in the US, correct? Somewhere in Asia?

Not in the US.

**Jacblacc911** · 08-01-2019, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by DoubleDownSoft21

Dealers are taught to keep their left hand over the mouth of the shoe for game protection.

What do you mean exactly by game protection?

**DoubleDownSoft21** · 08-01-2019, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Jacblacc911

What do you mean exactly by game protection?

Game protection= game security. As counters, we think the EITS is just looking for counters but they likely spend far more time watching dealers to make sure protocols are followed (i.e. clearing hands, not transferring chips from one hand to another. breaking down multi-colored wagers).

**stopgambling** · 08-02-2019, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by DoubleDownSoft21

Game protection= game security. As counters, we think the EITS is just looking for counters but they likely spend far more time watching dealers to make sure protocols are followed (i.e. clearing hands, not transferring chips from one hand to another. breaking down multi-colored wagers).

i would agree totally .

**What me worry** · 08-06-2019, 07:38 PM

I've had seconds dealt to me twice once out of a shoe. His method was flipping the cards up with either his middle or ring finger and pulling the 4th or 5th card out.