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Thread: Simple penetration question

  1. #1


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    Simple penetration question

    Does penetration affect the non card counting basic strategy player?

    I dropped into a casino that takes counter measures when they spot me. Today, I dropped in on the casino and started flat betting at a $10 table as the pit had seen me, got on the phone. Sure enough, the pit guy said something to the dealer and the dealer cut off half the 6 deck shoe. I played through the shoe flat betting. A ploppy jumped from another table to mine while cursing someone at other table. Within 2 rounds of his joining my table with me and 2 other ploppies, with him having won the round, the cut card comes out and the ploppy goes off on the dealer and then on the pit guy. The pit guy says the orders are from "upstairs" and if he did not like the table and the placement of the cut card on this table, he could move back to his table.

    One of the other ploppies listened to the upset ploppy and they both left convinced that the cut card placement hurt them.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Does penetration affect the non card counting basic strategy player?
    No.

  3. #3


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    Look up "cut card effect"

  4. #4


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    hey cookies - looked it up to no effect. I agree with Freightman - cut card placement does not affect bs decisions
    Last edited by barney; 06-25-2019 at 08:53 PM.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    hey cookies - looked it up to no effect. I agree with Freightman - cut card placement does not affect bs decisions
    Cut card effect has no bearing to the basic strategist, but is a factor for counters.

  6. #6


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    Ok, he's asking about BS and not the HE. In that case, where the cut card is placed has no bearing on how you play the hands, so long as you aren't using some sort of AP method.

    Ploppies are just stupid and want to blame others for their own ignorance.

  7. #7


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    https://www.blackjackincolor.com/blackjackeffects1.htm



    Basically, both basic strategists and ploppies are better off with CSM than with a shoe game.

  8. #8


    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    z
    z

    Amazing that a long long long time poster who claims to be a very frequent BHJ player who counts cards would stoop to ask this question.
    He is probably demented as I can see no other motivation for making a blooming fool of himself with a question that only a ploppy would pose.
    This is like a self-0described mathematician asking for the difference in measures of central tendency, or a seasoned auto mechanic asking -
    Crankcase? What is a crankcase?
    In this post a lovely Olde English descriptor - "crankpot" - leaps to mind.
    z
    z


    z
    z

  9. #9


    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinnyBJplayer View Post
    z
    z

    Amazing that a long long long time poster who claims to be a very frequent BHJ player who counts cards would stoop to ask this question.
    He is probably demented as I can see no other motivation for making a blooming fool of himself with a question that only a ploppy would pose.
    This is like a self-0described mathematician asking for the difference in measures of central tendency, or a seasoned auto mechanic asking -
    Crankcase? What is a crankcase?
    In this post a lovely Olde English descriptor - "crankpot" - leaps to mind.
    z
    z
    you are the stupid one. There have been several posts from mature posters who do not have the need to crap like you do.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Does penetration affect the non-card counting basic strategy player?
    The worse the pen the better it is for the non-card counting basic strategy player. The reason being more frequent shuffles and fewer hands played per hour. Full tables are also better for the non-counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    Basically, both basic strategists and ploppies are better off with CSM than with a shoe game.
    I agree with this even though there are more hands per hour played. At least playing against CSM the basic strategist will always be playing to a relatively neutral deck and won't get hurt as much by not pushing his bet into a heavy negative count they often see that they are unaware of at the time on a standard shuffled table.
    Last edited by BoSox; 06-26-2019 at 09:33 AM.

  11. #11


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    So, let's clear up a few things here. And several of you may be surprised by the (correct) answer.

    Zee wrote: "Does penetration affect the non card counting basic strategy player?"

    Note that he didn't write, "Does penetration CHANGE the strategy that the BS player uses?," nor is there any indication that that's what he meant. My immediate understanding of the question was, "Does the edge to the BS player change as penetration varies?" And the answer to that question is, actually, ... yes.

    Let's talk about the shoe game. And the whole discussion is about BS; there is no discussion whatsoever of card counting. Suppose I put the cut card so high in the shoe that it is four cards from the top (humor me!). Then, we are certain that only a single hand will be dealt, and the edge to the BS player is the classic off-the-top (dis) advantage. I'm sure we all agree.

    Now, let's take case number two, where we deal down to, let's say, the 5-deck level. This introduces the well-known cut-card effect (CCE), and that actually adversely affects our basic strategist to the tune of a couple of hundredths of one percent. Now, it should be clear to most that, as we go from the ridiculous 4-card penetration, where there is no adverse effect at all on the BS player, all the way down to, say, the 5-deck level, where several hundredths are lost to the CCE, there must be an ever-so-slightly sliding scale (continuity) of worsening edge to the basic strategist. In fact, Norm has studied this effect, and it is so small as to not be worth discussing, but I just wanted to point out that, technically, while we PLAY all the hands exactly the same no matter what, the ultimate edge to the BS player is, in fact, slightly impacted by penetration.

    Don

  12. #12


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    While one idiot was deriding me for the post, thanks to Don, we are all learning things many were not aware of.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    While one idiot was deriding me for the post, thanks to Don, we are all learning things many were not aware of.
    Good point Zee! It’s also good that Colin isn’t running this site or you’d have already been banned for potentially hurting business (money made from people registering). This is a bannable offense at BJA.

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