Complete newbie Basic Strat. question

**krly** · 07-01-2019, 09:37 AM

Ok...here we go. I'll be playing mostly shoe games. I've decided, that once I learn B.S. that I'll be using the KO method. Regarding B.S. I've just read "Burning The Tables In Las Vegas" and had a question regarding chapters 7 and 9 where he goes over "covers" and "guises".
If I was planning on using his suggestions regarding 1) Always stand on A-7 v 9,10,A, 2) Stand (or surrender)on H16 v 10, 3)Always insure a BJ and 4)Always insure an A.
Or, ignore the above and just ALWAYS surrender: 16 v 8-A, 15 v 9-A, 14 v 10-A, 8-8 v 10.
My questions are; are these covers wise? and secondly, if they are shouldn't I just learn B.S. using these revisions rather than the "proper way" which I'd be changing anyway ?
Open to (and hoping for) any advice I can get.............THANKS.

**Freightman** · 07-01-2019, 09:47 AM

The book you’re referring to essentially advises a series of low cost errors in order to 8ncrease longevity. It is also directed to the individual playing higher stakes, as in min 50 or 100.

You’re clearly a newbie, likely playing red chip wagers. You cannot afford these low cost errors. They will erode an already low $per hour win rate.

Learn BS perfectly. Surrender only when called for, don’t worry about cover.

After you’ve learned BS perfectly, learn indices as in when to deviate from BS. It starts with baby steps.

**Splitting Tens** · 07-01-2019, 09:51 AM

Hello!
First, I am one of the least-experienced folks who posts on this site, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, if I am contradicted... However..
* If you are not counting yet, there is not a reason to use cover. Altering play from basic strategy will just be throwing money away.
* You are correct by starting with basic strategy. As you learning, make sure you learn *why* the basic strategy plays are correct. As you begin to count, you will deviate from those plays at the deck composition changes. Understanding the *why* behind basic strategy will help you to learn those ideal deviations (indices).
* Once you start counting cards, you will need to disguise your play so that you don't get asked to leave the casino. One way to do that is to make poor playing decisions. They cost a little bit of money in the short run, but will help keep you from being tossed. Camouflage (or cover) can take quite a few forms.
* As you are learning BS, watch the players around you. Listen to their comments. When you start to count, you want to be able to adopt their mannerisms so that the casino management thinks you are just another one of them. This form of cover is less expensive than making poor playing decisions.

Now, by others' responses, we'll find out if I am learning anything....

**Freightman** · 07-01-2019, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Wave

My recommendation would be to remain patient and don't start playing for $ until you have both BS and KO down pat. .

I disagree. Nothing like actual casino conditions to help a newbie season himself. You are, of course, trying to protect the OP bankroll, which is commendable.

I would suggest to OP, until he is comfortable with his skills, not try to make money, but rather to minimize his loss. Reduce your spread, which reduces variance, which will almost certainly eliminate profit. Get used to table interruptions, such as the pit critters, the dealer, and of course the waitress fondling you for higher tips.

Once you’re able to deal with distractions to the point they don’t distract, start to play a spread that will make you some money.

**Splitting Tens** · 07-01-2019, 10:00 AM

The OP said he's not counting, yet. So, he should be flat betting and not able to Wong yet. I prefer to practice in a casino than on a computer - which I find boring.
I would suggest that he accept that he will lose money as he learns and just play very small stakes....

**Freightman** · 07-01-2019, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Splitting Tens

Hello!
First, I am one of the least-experienced folks who posts on this site, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, if I am contradicted... However..
* If you are not counting yet, there is not a reason to use cover. Altering play from basic strategy will just be throwing money away.
* You are correct by starting with basic strategy. As you learning, make sure you learn *why* the basic strategy plays are correct. As you begin to count, you will deviate from those plays at the deck composition changes. Understanding the *why* behind basic strategy will help you to learn those ideal deviations (indices).
* Once you start counting cards, you will need to disguise your play so that you don't get asked to leave the casino. One way to do that is to make poor playing decisions. They cost a little bit of money in the short run, but will help keep you from being tossed. Camouflage (or cover) can take quite a few forms.
* As you are learning BS, watch the players around you. Listen to their comments. When you start to count, you want to be able to adopt their mannerisms so that the casino management thinks you are just another one of them. This form of cover is less expensive than making poor playing decisions.

Now, by others' responses, we'll find out if I am learning anything....

A nice post from a newbie. The only thing I would take issue with is purposely making poor playing decisions for camo purposes, if you are not seasoned and playing low stakes. I guarantee that, until OP is seasoned, he will make bett8ng and play errors, and quite possibly not even notice.

**Splitting Tens** · 07-01-2019, 10:10 AM

I should have worded that better... I was referencing his book’s suggestions on deviating from correct play as a form of cover. I would not recommend it for any new player - including myself. We newer folks don’t need to give money away.

**BJPloppy** · 07-01-2019, 10:22 AM

I will assume you plan to study the B.S. & KO until you can make the proper plays in your sleep. (Purchase CVBJ if you have not done so already.)

You will need to ask yourself many other questions:

(1) Will you be playing locally at a couple of casinos, or will you be traveling to spread your action around? The more you concentrate your action at local places, the more cover you will need. However, be aware that cover will not stop them from figuring out you are playing a winning game. Lifetime earnings will eventually get you the tap on the shoulder.

(2) Will you be playing at a level that requires cover?

(3) Do you plan to play short sessions and hit & run - or Wong? BTW: If you are not familiar with the term "Wong," I am asking if you plan to jump in and out of games so as to only play favorable counts.

(4) Do you plan to play rated? The consensus of the professionals on this forum is that the comps are not worth the hassle. You may come to a different conclusion if your goals are modest.

---
* I did not address your specific questions about the various cover plays because you can look up the cost of each cover play and decide for yourself if the cost is worth it. You should learn the correct B.S. because there will be plenty of times when cover is not needed and there is no sense in throwing money away.

** I should also note that your "act" or "persona" will get you a lot further than some cover plays that will probably not even be noticed. The idea is to never have them want to look at you and check your play.

**RTR2021** · 07-01-2019, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

The book you’re referring to essentially advises a series of low cost errors in order to 8ncrease longevity. It is also directed to the individual playing higher stakes, as in min 50 or 100.

You’re clearly a newbie, likely playing red chip wagers. You cannot afford these low cost errors. They will erode an already low $per hour win rate.

Learn BS perfectly. Surrender only when called for, don’t worry about cover.

After you’ve learned BS perfectly, learn indices as in when to deviate from BS. It starts with baby steps.

sage advice

**RTR2021** · 07-01-2019, 11:42 AM

I think losses stemming from mistakes in the beginning are inevitable and nothing substitutes for the experience of jumping in the deep end and giving it a go. Just do it at the lowest stakes. Success requires failure.

**Freightman** · 07-01-2019, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Wave

@ Freightman that recommendation was based on my personal experience. If I had it to do over I would have waited, IMO it would have been a less expensive way to gain experience. Another inexpensive way to gain insight/experience is to observe live table play.

All well and good, but nothing beats actual casino conditions. You don’t try to kill the house, simply get a feel for the environment. Keep your spread low, even flatbet, and learn to deal with distractions, get comfortable.

Blackjack is a game of decisions, and you must learn to make them quickly, accurately and comfortably. Reading books only, and watching others play doesn’t give you that hands on experience.

Your cost doing it this way, will be low - think of it as a tuition expense.

**krly** · 07-01-2019, 11:45 AM

NEWBIE...pt.2 Thanks for ll the remarks so far. 1 other question. I live in So-Cal so Vegas will be my initial "home base". If I want to play shoes, which B.S. chart would be best to start with 6 or 8 deck and dealer hit or stand on all/or soft 17's ? When I said,"newbie" I wasn't kidding. Have played craps before buy have never played a game of blackjack. Again, I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

**Freightman** · 07-01-2019, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by krly

NEWBIE...pt.2 Thanks for ll the remarks so far. 1 other question. I live in So-Cal so Vegas will be my initial "home base". If I want to play shoes, which B.S. chart would be best to start with 6 or 8 deck and dealer hit or stand on all/or soft 17's ? When I said,"newbie" I wasn't kidding. Have played craps before buy have never played a game of blackjack. Again, I appreciate your taking the time to reply.

You’re not likely to find s17 at low stakes. Stay off the strip. Play in some of the downtown joints, and in the locals casinos. You should find 6 deck 3-2 BJ, some even with surrender.

Also, if you’re SO California, though I’ve never played there, there should be some games far closer than Vegas. Others can comment on game quality. CBJN May give you some insights.