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Thread: Zen w/ ASC V. HO2 for DD which is more powerful?

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    Senior Member dharmaprija's Avatar
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    Zen w/ ASC V. HO2 for DD which is more powerful?

    I've used Zen for 6-7 years now but am considering a more powerful attack for DD games. Both of my laptops are crashed or I would sim the stats with my CvData or CVCX whichever and get the stats myself. I hope someone else will get me the hard performance numbers and or raw data. Also am interested in folks real world experience with incorporating an ASC with Zen and their results with the classic Hi Opt II W/ASC that's been the mainstay for Handheld games for so long. My question is this: since the only difference between the two is the reckoning of the 6 as a "1" value in HO and 2 in Zen and Aces as 0 in HO & -1 in Zen my mind wants to believe that Zen will be more powerful than HO if you simply incorporate the ASC. I am eager to see the stats and hear everyone's input. Especially Stealth, Three and RCJH.
    “The essence of independence has been to think and act according to standards from within, not without.”
    Aleister Crowley

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    Well, since you asked... I'm not sure why you'd add an ASC to an Ace reckoned count. You would have to sim all your indices; you could neither use Zen indices nor HOP2 indices correctly. With HOP2 you ignore the ace for most (not all) playing decisions, using the surplus or deficit aces for betting purposes.

    Now on a few hands (think doubling an 11vA, or 9v7) the impact of surplus or deficit aces matter. If you have surplus aces left, maybe you don't double that 11, but maybe you DO double that 9. So I think figuring out the correct indices for a HOP2/Zen morph would be more complicated than you're imagining.

    That said, I play a lot of DD, and prefer HOP2 for that. If you're playing mainly shoes, Zen is good. If you've used a count for six years, I wouldn't waste time trying to reinvent it; spend your time perfecting what you already know.

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    With raw data Hi opt 2 is better without a doubt . If you play in real world where speed and errors would make a difference , staying with zen is a good idea. If you play exclusively DD then that would be a different matter. Better pen , speed and zero/low heat would make a much bigger difference than what you mention.

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    You already know Zen, just stick with that. The value of HO2 and the ASC is often overstated by many. Zen also has the added benefit of working great on shoe games. Good luck trying to side count aces on the shoe games. If you play exclusively pitch games Ho2 might be worth it. I spent hours simming my games with the Zen I was using and HO2, I concluded the switch was not worth the effort. A little tidbit as well. The canned Ho2 ASC sim in CVCX has an absurd amount of indices within it that IMO no human is going to memorize. Trim them down to a more realistic 60-70 indices and you will find the Gain from Zen to Ho2 is only a few percent. Not worth the effort IMO when you add in the fact you need to keep the side count the aces as well. If coming from Hilo or simpler count, I would say go to either one but already knowing Zen, I say just stick with it..

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    z
    z

    Hi-Opt II reigns supreme.
    z
    z

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