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Thread: Player Banked games.

  1. #1


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    Player Banked games.

    x
    I live in central California.
    Is this so? - s'm'g I heard is possible in the Card Rooms.
    What is the deal with "player banked" card games?
    If I could somehow get my mitts on like $50,000 wouldn't
    this be a golden opportunity ? If not, why not?

  2. #2


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Well you have to pay a fee to the casino, and you run the risk of being cheated and backed off, but yes there is probably some profit to be made especially on games with a high house edge.

  3. #3


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    The variance is also high. What if some player gets lucky hits a high payout wager like a royal flush and wins your entire bank? You have to pay.

    You will also have to be careful walking out to the parking lot. Everybody has seen your bankroll and I have heard of people getting robbed.

  4. #4


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    Yes, there are good opportunities. As mentioned, very high variance due to payouts that pay multiple times the original wager.
    To go after the big money you need a 6 figure bank roll to sustain variance swings. If you are interested in making only $30-$40 an hour, this can be done banking low variance games with low limit wagers with about $30k/ROR under 3%.

    Most of these card rooms prefer a cashiers check to hold at cage if you bank the carnival games. There is positives and negatives in this. The upside is you can carry about $10k in actual cash to cover the majority of the payouts if needed, then when a large payout such as a royal flush hits they can tap into the check. Much safer but more verifiable records.

    If you decide to do this as a "business" banking continually for months many card rooms will require you to get a badge with Bureau of Gambling Control (Department of Justice). As far as I know this has not been challenged in the courts. If you refuse to obtain the badge, they may utilize their right to "refuse service" to you. There are a few card rooms like Commerce Casino located outside of Los Angeles that will find a way to ban bankers (Currently being sued). For the most part you wont have any issue on electing to bank from the card room itself. However, you will get an earful from other players at the table.

    Cheating by the card room itself is virtually non existent. Collusion between dealer and player is more likely but in my experience not common at all. Most of these card room dealers are making 6 figures or close to it. Because the state limits the numbers of tables they have, many games are constantly full with waiting list, creating good tipping opportunities for dealers. Most will think twice about cheating. Most card rooms have installed the machines that read the cards. Most have policies to where any payout over $500 is verified with the machine. It would be very difficult to "set up a royal flush" or another high payout hand with these machines.

    In an attempt to show their blackjack games are honest, they do allow players to "Buy Bet". This allows the player to play the Dealers hand and the banker makes the player decisions for the players hand (This is different that being the banker) The corporate bankers are instructed to play basic strategy on these hands. The player must also put up the amount equal to their wager in the event of a split/double down/or blackjack payout. The kicker is a 5% premium added to all buy bets. This option keeps the game honest, and with the 5% added premium per hand makes it a more profitable bet for the banker.

    So Yes, ultimately good opportunity but requires thick skin and a stomach of steel to handle variance swings. Even a CCW is a good idea.
    Last edited by BankerCA; 05-11-2019 at 10:00 AM.

  5. #5


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    BankerCA, Kind of off topic but what is your experience counting in card rooms? Is there heat, are there backoffs, is it case-by-case basis? Etc. Yes I know most are 6:5 but the key word here is “most”.

  6. #6


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetn1s View Post
    BankerCA, Kind of off topic but what is your experience counting in card rooms? Is there heat, are there backoffs, is it case-by-case basis? Etc.
    Heat and backoffs are very rare in a cardroom. You must keep in mind since you are not playing against the "house", the outcome of the game is not much of a concern to them. They understand that the blackjack game they offer is hard to beat without a significant bankroll. I have never seen a player even attempt to count these games. The only motivation for a back off would be pressure from their banking corporation. In addition to the collection, the card rooms have very lucrative contracts with the third party banking group to cover action when no players elect to hold the bank, which is virtually always.

    Another forum member who was on Gambling With An Edge talks about his experience counting in a card room. If I recall correctly his top bet was 2x$5000 and they welcomed his action, as they think its unbeatable or not worth your time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetn1s View Post
    Yes I know most are 6:5 but the key word here is “most”.
    Every Card Room in the State that I am aware of is 6:5. They have to have a high edge game in order to cover the collection rake per round and enough EV in it to make it feasible for the banking corporation.
    Last edited by BankerCA; 05-09-2019 at 11:17 PM.

  7. #7


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    Banker, do card rooms use CSM's to shuffle blackjack games or are they hand-shuffled?

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by BankerCA View Post
    Another forum member who was on Gambling With An Edge talks about his experience counting in a card room.
    If I recall correctly his top bet was 2x$5000 and they welcomed his action, as they think its unbeatable or not worth your time.
    x
    I will search online for Gambling With an Edge, but as a Californian, born and bred, $5,000 sounds like hyperbole. I am thinking $500.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinnyBJplayer View Post
    I will search online for Gambling With an Edge, but as a Californian, born and bred, $5,000 sounds like hyperbole. I am thinking $500.
    It is 5k. Its a member here that had a 7 figure bankroll. Most Card rooms have a $500 max. There are card rooms in the Los Angeles area that have $5,000 max bets.



    Quote Originally Posted by 2Bornot2B View Post
    Banker, do card rooms use CSM's to shuffle blackjack games or are they hand-shuffled?
    For the sake of this discussion ASM (Automatic Shuffle machine) shuffles the deck not currently in play vs. CSM (Continuous Shuffle machine) Combination automatic shuffler and dealing shoe.

    They have 2 decks they rotate. The cards are dealt from a shoe. When the shoe deck is complete they take the freshly shuffled deck from the ASM and place it in the shoe, then the other deck gets shuffled by the ASM while the current round is being played.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by BankerCA View Post
    Yes, there are good opportunities. As mentioned, very high variance due to payouts that pay multiple times the original wager.
    To go after the big money you need a 6 figure bank roll. If you are interested in making only $30-$40 an hour, this can be done banking low variance games with low limit wagers with about $30k/ROR under 3%.

    Most of these card rooms prefer a cashiers check to hold at cage if you bank the carnival games. There is positives and negatives in this. The upside is you can carry about $10k in actual cash to cover the majority of the payouts if needed, then when a large payout such as a royal flush hits they can tap into the check. Much safer but more verifiable records.

    If you decide to do this as a "business" banking continually for months many card rooms will require you to get a badge with Bureau of Gambling Control (Department of Justice). As far as I know this has not been challenged in the courts. If you refuse to obtain the badge, they may utilize their right to "refuse service" to you. There are a few card rooms like Commerce Casino located outside of Los Angeles that will find a way to ban bankers (Currently being sued). For the most part you wont have any issue on electing to bank from the card room itself. However, you will get an earful from other players at the table.

    Cheating by the card room itself is virtually non existent. Collusion between dealer and player is more likely but in my experience not common at all. Most of these card room dealers are making 6 figures or close to it. Because the state limits the numbers of tables they have, many games are constantly full with waiting list, creating good tipping opportunities for dealers. Most will think twice about cheating. Most card rooms have installed the machines that read the cards. Most have policies to where any payout over $500 is verified with the machine. It would be very difficult to "set up a royal flush" or another high payout hand with these machines.

    In an attempt to show their blackjack games are honest, they do allow players to "Buy Bet". This allows the player to play the Dealers hand and the banker makes the player decisions for the players hand (This is different that being the banker) The corporate bankers are instructed to play basic strategy on these hands. The player must also put up the amount equal to their wager in the event of a split/double down/or blackjack payout. The kicker is a 5% premium added to all buy bets. This option keeps the game honest, and with the 5% added premium per hand makes it a more profitable bet for the banker.

    So Yes, ultimately good opportunity but requires thick skin and a stomach of steel to handle variance swings. Even a CCW is a good idea.

    Do you know if it's actually possible to get this badge and continue banking if they ban you?

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by lanbo View Post
    Do you know if it's actually possible to get this badge and continue banking if they ban you?

    As long as you don't have a felony or a conviction for a crime of moral turpitude, you should be able to obtain a badge. There are 88 card rooms in the state, and not everyone has this policy. The legality of this comes into question, but no one has challenged it yet. You must keep in mind as a Banker you are still a "Player". The banker is still considered a player in the eyes of the law. It's like in Baccarat betting banker or player then paying a commission on winning banker bets. This is the same as if they would ask a Counter or another type of AP that spends endless hours playing to get a badge if they believe they are long term profitable or doing it as a "Business/Career".

    Once you are banned, you can not return. If they do ban you they are not going to tell you it is because you elected to bank. They will make up another reason or not tell you at all. Ultimately it comes down to their right to "Refuse Service" as a private business. This does not keep you from going to any other card room. They don't "share information" with other rooms, they typically don't have surveillance teams.

    You can bank long term without getting banned. There are only a few rooms that have this practice. The casino makes their money on the collection rake. Either the corporate banker pays or the player banker pays, but either way they get it.

    The Department of Justice has announced that they are going to make some changes in these card rooms. The Indian casinos have been lobbying to get rid of player banked games in these Cardrooms as it is killing their business. Its a work around of California's "House Banked games law". Time will tell what the Department of Justice decides these changes will be or if the court decides they violate "House Banked Games Law".

    As a side note, up until the early 2000's these card rooms were only licensed to deal poker. At this time a gaming license would cost you about 10k since you had to buy if off someone that already had it (like a liquor license, the state only issues so many). Almost overnight when they authorized these rooms to deal "Vegas Style" games, the value went up to about $1 million just for the license alone.
    Last edited by BankerCA; 05-11-2019 at 10:02 AM.

  12. #12


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    I'm actually in the process of forming a large bankroll via investors. I have the experience and knowledge. If anyone is interested in participating let me know.

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