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Thread: Team play

  1. #1
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    Team play

    Does anyone on here use team play or is every one mainly solo? I'm kind of interested, but don't know very many card counters lol. I live in the st.louis area. It would make sense to me that playing as a team would be more advantageous. Thanks

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    Some do, but I don't really think that many. Team plays are tough to pull off inside casinos these days. If you find someone you really trust to combine bankrolls, that alone is very advantageous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Counting_Is_Fun View Post
    If you find someone you really trust to combine bankrolls
    Trust and competent are what you have to have. My 2 cents

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    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc12b View Post
    Trust and competent are what you have to have. My 2 cents
    Trustworthiness trumps competency.

  5. #5


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    There are benefits and downsides to team play vs solo play. Some may or may not effect you and some you may not even care about.

    - Larger effective bankroll. For example, one person with a $10k bankroll might be able to play a game worth $10/hour due to risk. If 10 people team up and each put up $10k each, they can play 10x the stakes at the same risk, making $100/hour. If you already have a sufficient bankroll, then this part isn't all that necessary.

    - Similarly, if you're on a team, you get hit N0 quicker (time). If you're playing a game where N0 is 15,000 hands or 150 hours, that'll take you (obviously) 150 hours to get to. If you play with 9 other people, then it'll take each of you 15 hours (15 hours * 10 people = 150 hours) to get to the same point. Essentially, you're reducing the day-to-day volatility by sharing it with others.

    - More types of play are possible with team play -- for instance, spotter + BP. Other types of AP can also be possible, or at least, make it easier to do.

    Downsides, of course, is that you have to trust others. Obviously you shouldn't get into an arrangement where you don't trust others, but there are other factors, too.

    - Nobody's perfect. If you're on your own and make a mistake, that's on you entirely. What happens if someone loses money (they drop a chip, get robbed, etc.)....do they owe that money back to the team, or is it viewed as a mistake that anyone can make and perhaps wouldn't necessarily be fair to charge one person that amount? Sometimes people report the incorrect win/loss on a session, what do you do about that, if someone has more (or less) than they should have at the end of the day according to their posted results?

    - Disagreements: How to go about attacking a certain play, what is considered a legitimate or not legitimate expense, how are profits shared? Every question raises more questions -- if profits are shared based on # of hours played and the team is running good, can people go put in "shit hours" (low EV hours) to get their % bumped up (unfairly)? What if the team is losing, do losses also get 'paid' based on hours played? If so, no one's going to want to put in more hours during a losing period, because they'll just get attributed to having a higher % of the action (negative). If it's based on EV generated, which is probably the most fair, do you subtract their expenses from their generated EV? How do you calculate EV generated, especially in a spotter/BP approach? And the rabbit hole continues....

    - Unforeseeable circumstances. What happens if someone gets arrested? What if he sues a casino? Who has action on those costs/profits? What if someone gets into a car accident or their car breaks down....does the team pay for it, or is it on that individual?

    - Accounting: It's a lot easier to do your own accounting because it is what it is. If you make a mistake on accounting on solo play, then that's, again, solely on you. It's a lot more difficult when you have to add up results for several different players, their expenses, and then their appropriate shares of the win/loss.

    - Other types of AP. What happens if someone finds a good promotion, but not everyone wants action on it? In one sense, you can't force everyone to take action on everything the team does, but then again, it also makes accounting a bit more difficult if everyone has a different % of the action based on different plays.




    IMO -- If you're looking at team play, then either try to join an existing team or if you know another counter IRL, then team up with them. Start off simple -- do a weekend trip and share everything 50/50, or come up with a plan where you're going to share the next X amount of hours of action 50/50 (EG: Split the next 50 hours played, re-evaluate, then see if you want to do it again).
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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    Very nice post, and nicely written!

    I didn't understand one part: you wrote, "What if the team is losing, do losses also get 'paid' based on hours played? If so, no one's going to want to put in more hours during a losing period, because they'll just get attributed to having a higher % of the action (negative)."

    I assume by "the team is losing" you mean the team is in the red, and not just that the team is eating into profits by losing at the moment. If the team is in the red, why does it matter if you have more hours than someone else? The loss is borne entirely by the investors in proportion to the amount they have invested. How many hours the players have played has no consequence in that situation. Or, so it seems to me.

    Don

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    Cardsfan55,

    One book that covers many aspects of running a team is this:

    Blackjack Blueprint: How to Play Like a Pro . . . Part-Time Paperback by Rick 'Night Train' Blaine

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Very nice post, and nicely written!

    I didn't understand one part: you wrote, "What if the team is losing, do losses also get 'paid' based on hours played? If so, no one's going to want to put in more hours during a losing period, because they'll just get attributed to having a higher % of the action (negative)."

    I assume by "the team is losing" you mean the team is in the red, and not just that the team is eating into profits by losing at the moment. If the team is in the red, why does it matter if you have more hours than someone else? The loss is borne entirely by the investors in proportion to the amount they have invested. How many hours the players have played has no consequence in that situation. Or, so it seems to me.

    Don
    Yes, losing as in "in the red".

    It would depend on how the team structure is set up, and I used that as an example of why you can't necessarily just say "Players take a proportional amount of action based on their hours (or EV) compared to team's total hours (or EV)." And if you go the route where investors take all of the losses, then you need to figure out an appropriate amount of time before a bankroll is split, because in the worst case scenario for the investors, if they take all the losses and not all the wins and you do a spit (hypothetically) every single day, then they're gonna get screwed over.


    The way my team works (not a BJ card-counting team), is we almost always just invest whatever % we feel comfortable with into a new play, and don't do payouts based on how much play someone does. If you invest 25%, then you get 25% of the wins or 25% of the losses. We try to split up play as evenly/fairly as possible....and if someone isn't putting in their "fair" share of work, then others tell him to go do more work. Somewhat by coincidence, we usually all take a full equal share of the investment, so it's not like some people are investing way more than others.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    Most people play solo. It's easier to play solo in my opinion. Team play is nice for lower variance and comradery. Note that even though you may have a larger effective BR to play with, your actual EV and wins will be similar to if you didn't have a team. Take RS's example. 10 people putting up 10k for a 100k BR. Yay. Now you can play for 100$/hr EV instead of 10.. But wait, you also have to chop it ten ways. Now you're back down to 10$/hr EV and you're playing games with much higher scrutiny.

    Nice posts RS. There are as many ways to run a team as there are teams. All the points RS touched upon should be discussed and agreed on before any play is done. One nice thing is you can run stuff however you wish.

    Another way to split the money is based on pre agreed upon percents. Like maybe a few people are planning to play hard, one not so much, and some others are staying home, but are still invested in the action. The ones playing the most get a larger percent, followed by the one who played a little, and then the home bodies get a small percent.

    Also, how often do you cut up the bankroll? Do you play until you reach a specific goal of EV, hours, or actual win? Do you just chop it every couple days or every week? Do you chop it multiple times a day? How often is money distributed? How is it distributed?

    In my opinion trustworthy people who are agreeable and think like you are the best. Things will come up and you'll have to agree upon a solution. Other things will come up too, like expenses. Team with people who are about as frugal as you.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    +1 Bubbles........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    Now you can play for 100$/hr EV instead of 10.. But wait, you also have to chop it ten ways. Now you're back down to 10$/hr EV and you're playing games with much higher scrutiny.
    that is not the case actually . it is the moving of money and trust that is the main factor. Also i highly doubt anyone is getting the scaling effect of 10x the EV. probably 5x to 6x max.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    Now you can play for 100$/hr EV instead of 10.. But wait, you also have to chop it ten ways. Now you're back down to 10$/hr EV and you're playing games with much higher scrutiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    that is not the case actually . it is the moving of money and trust that is the main factor. Also i highly doubt anyone is getting the scaling effect of 10x the EV. probably 5x to 6x max.
    That is not the case actually, but not for the reason you quote. With the joint bank that is ten times the size of the individual's bank, each player on the team plays as if he/she owns the entire joint bank and plays for ten times as much as he/she would ordinarily wager. It doesn't matter that the win is now "chopped" ten ways, because the gross win is now 100 times what it was compared to the individual's solo play. So, the end result is that each player on the team wins ten times as much as he/she would win playing alone, even after the ten-way split.

    Don

  13. #13


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    With team play you always have someone to report to. It might be the team manager or just the team rules. If you want a boss then get a 9 to 5 job. Going solo you don't have to answer to anyone and you can change the rules anytime you want.

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