Natural (3:2) pays on split tens when drawing ace

**ferenc11** · 03-04-2019, 09:32 AM

Hi Girls and Boys!

I hope either Mr.Schlesinger or any competent player could reply to my question:

By How much my mathematical edge would increase (approximately) If I got paid 3:2 on split tens (against any up card lower than Ace and Ten) by drawing an Ace in European No Hole Card Game?
Basically it pays as a natural.
I assume the game is quite favourable to the player...right?

Thank You,
All the best

**DSchles** · 03-04-2019, 12:06 PM

The rule isn't worth anything to the BS player. That's because, in order to collect the 3:2 bonus, you have to split tens, which is a bad move. The chance that you will catch on ace on either ten and get the 150% payout isn't great enough to warrant making the wrong play.

Don

**ShipTheCookies** · 03-04-2019, 12:21 PM

There was an American casino that automatically paid 3:2 on split aces that drew a 10 at certain times. This was a few years ago. Not sure if they still do though.

**Dog Hand** · 03-04-2019, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies

There was an American casino that automatically paid 3:2 on split aces that drew a 10 at certain times. This was a few years ago. Not sure if they still do though.

ShipTheCookies,

If you are referring to Meskwaki Casino, who (as mention in Katarina Walker's book) followed this practice on their Spanish 21 game, that particular ship has long ago sailed.

Dog Hand

**ferenc11** · 03-04-2019, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

The rule isn't worth anything to the BS player. That's because, in order to collect the 3:2 bonus, you have to split tens, which is a bad move. The chance that you will catch on ace on either ten and get the 150% payout isn't great enough to warrant making the wrong play.

Don

I'm not a BS player. I'm a card counter. Even in high counts- I have my own indices for splitting tens- It wouldn't be worth anything? I thought that this rule might help increase my EV a tiny bit.
Perhaps I was wrong then.

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**ShipTheCookies** · 03-04-2019, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dog Hand

ShipTheCookies,

If you are referring to Meskwaki Casino, who (as mention in Katarina Walker's book) followed this practice on their Spanish 21 game, that particular ship has long ago sailed.

Dog Hand

Not there. And it was on a standard blackjack game.

**ferenc11** · 03-04-2019, 01:27 PM

I totally understand that splitting tens is not a great idea. Longevity is extremely important factor for a long run game yet this venue doesn't seem to care. I've seen many players in this casino recklessly splitting tens without getting a tap-tap...

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**Optimus Prime** · 03-04-2019, 01:55 PM

I would think you’d just lower your 10-split indexes a bit. As far as not splitting tens for cover, I would assume it would be a pretty common practice among the ploppies at the store, given the rule.

**DSchles** · 03-04-2019, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

I would think you’d just lower your 10-split indexes a bit. As far as not splitting tens for cover, I would assume it would be a pretty common practice among the ploppies at the store, given the rule.

Yes, that's right. If it's correct for a counter to split tens once a certain index is surpassed, then if getting an ace results in a 3:2 payoff, the traditional indices would be lowered a little (maybe by one or two). As to the effect on overall edge, it would have to be simmed, but it's obvious that it wouldn't be worth very much at all.

Don

**ferenc11** · 03-05-2019, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

I would think you’d just lower your 10-split indexes a bit. As far as not splitting tens for cover, I would assume it would be a pretty common practice among the ploppies at the store, given the rule.

Why would I lower my 10-split indexes? I don't get it, I'm sorry.

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**Counting_Is_Fun** · 03-05-2019, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by ferenc11

Why would I lower my 10-split indexes? I don't get it, I'm sorry.

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Because as Don said, splitting tens in that scenario becomes slightly more advantageous...so you would deviate slightly earlier in a positive count.

**ferenc11** · 03-05-2019, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Counting_Is_Fun

Because as Don said, splitting tens in that scenario becomes slightly more advantageous...so you would deviate slightly earlier in a positive count.

Thanks! By how much? I use REKO. I split tens at +27 (RC) or above against 6 and at +29 (RC) or above against 5.
I don't use flooring or truncating.

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**James989** · 03-05-2019, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by ferenc11

Thanks! By how much? I use REKO. I split tens at +27 (RC) or above against 6 and at +29 (RC) or above against 5.
I don't use flooring or truncating.

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For the game of 6 deck, H17, RS4, RSA2, Peek, DAS, DOA, NoSurr :-

a) T,T vs 6 ----- ev = +47.9%(split TT, draw an Ace, not BJ and pay 1 to 1 if player wins)
b) T,T vs 6 ----- ev = +62.8%(split TT, draw an Ace is consider as BJ and auto pay 3 to 2 regardless of dealer's final total)
c) T,T vs 6 ----- ev = +67.7%(No split TT, pay 1 to 1 if player wins)

There is a big gap between b) and c), so I don't think you have much opportunity to split TT vs 6 !