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  1. #1
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    Craps software, reveiw from someone

    Anyone heard of this Crap software

    http://deepnettech.com/estore/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=27&zenid=c038ad359 6b06304e7ada35b2ab32846
    Last edited by Norm; 02-14-2019 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Unlinked to stop Google point to junk site. You can still copy to a browser.

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    I do not own the program, but Smart Craps is predicated on being able to simulate "dice setting" / "dice control" - influencing how the dice will land by lining them up and tossing them in a certain way. From what I have learned, this is a dubious claim at best, with several "experts" offering expensive seminars on beating craps via dice setting

    In 2004, Stanford apparently became convinced there was something to dice setting and worked with a couple of these experts who gave him free lessons for the publicity. After extensive practice he began winning at craps and subsequently published Wong On Dice. From what I understand, he later came to the conclusion that the whole concept was not reliable enough to assume long term profits

    As for as Smart Craps, the price is $129.95 and I do not see how having a computer simulate dice setting can help someone throw the dice in the same way in a live craps session in a casino

    For simulation and experimentation, I purchased WinCraps Professional from Cloud City Software - https://www.cloudcitysoftware.com/ - for $14.95 (no, I don’t not get a pass through commission). It's a beautifully done program, with every bet available in the casinos, and offers extensive "system and strategy" testing capabilities

    I had been out of blackjack for over 15 years and have just started brushing up my game for a recreational return to the tables. I always wanted to try craps, so I purchased WinCraps. It's a great program, as I said, but unfortunately I apparently don't have much of a feel for craps as I have yet to win a WinCraps session. At least it’s been a cheap education

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    History Channel - BREAKING VEGAS - Dice Dominator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojvj_rkVHh0

  4. #4


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    Anything "dice setting" or "dice influence" should be in the Voodoo/Disadvantage forum!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    Anything "dice setting" or "dice influence" should be in the Voodoo/Disadvantage forum!
    It's not voodoo. It is just a skill few can master. I have seen a few that are good enough to have a big advantage betting hop bets. Those that don't have it try to make money betting the pass line. If you have the skill you change the actual odds of what will come up. It doesn't take a genius to figure out your biggest edges will be on the big payout bets. The skewing of the actual from the random has its biggest rewards with higher payouts.

    For example, to illustrate how to best take advantage of odds of the game if you can skew the actual: A hop bet pays pays 15:1 for something that randomly hits 1 out of every 18 times, or pays 30:1 and randomly hits 1 out of 36 times. If you can keep the dice on axis 100% of the time, which nobody can do, there are 16 possible outcomes. The 15:1 payout hits 1 out of ever 8 times (2 out of 16) and the 30:1 payout hits 1 out of every 16 times. While there will be some failed rolls that don't keep both dice on axis there will also be further skewing within the 16 possible on axis outcomes that actually make the odds of success higher then the 1 out of 8 or 1 out of 16 sited.

    The odds you will be that skilled is like the odds of being a hall of fame athlete. So for all practical purposes few that do have an influence on the dice try exploiting hop bets. Maybe the poorer paying cousin the hard way bets is within their reach. But the point is being able to control the dice is just the first step. You have to know how that control affects house edge to target the most exploitable bets for your skill. So first you need to develop the skill, which is not something many can do. Then you have to understand how to use the skill to get an advantage. You need to affect the odds of both rolling winners and losers. Only hop bets are always resolved in one roll. The rest have a subset of possible rolls that are winners and a subset of possible rolls that are losers. The edge on each bet will be determined by how you affect the odds of both. Not just the odds of rolling a loser.

    A fact about dice are that you can't roll a 5 or 9 without having one of the die come up 3 or 4. The 3 and 4 are on opposite sides of the dice. Put those two off axis and if the dice stay on axis you can't roll a 5 or 9. The possible combinations for the 16 on axis possibilities are 4 ways to roll a 7; 2 ways to roll each of 3, 6, 8, and 11; and 1 way each to roll a 2, 4, 10, and 12; and no way to roll a 5 or 9. Can you say lay the 5 and 9? On axis no way to roll a 5 or 9 and 4 ways to roll a 7. Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 5 or 9 (0 ways on axis) for an infinite on axis advantage. Lay bets are great come out roll bets, since a winning seven allows you to keep shooting the dice. On axis point established on 37.5% of random rolls. What about laying the 4 and 10? Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 4 or 10 (2 ways on axis). So you lay the 4 and 10 for $70 each and only lose 1 bet for a $71 loss if the vig is payed on a lose or lose $70 if it is not paid on a lose, but you win both bets for a total of $67 or $68 on a bet you win twice as often as you lose. What about laying the 6 and 8? Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 6 or 8 (4 ways on axis). So you lay the 6 and 8 for $42 each to win 34 each and only lose 1 bet for a $43, but you win both bets for a total of $67 or $68 on a bet you win as often as you lose.

    So laying the 4, 5, 9, and 10 on the come-out wins $135 to $136 but can only lose at most $71 and wins twice as often as it losses in the 16 possible on axis rolls. Two thirds of the on axis come-out rolls that establish a point don't cost you anything but you likely rolled on or more come-out sevens before establishing a point. Now that is a pretty fat edge even with some rare off axis throws averaging in.

    Hard ways 4 and 10 are similar with the 3 and 4 set off axis. On axis there is 1 way to win and 4 ways to lose on a bet that pays 7:1.

    But you have to have the skill of landing the dice flat so they move on axis with their forward momentum and keeping them from doing much after they land. If you can't do that all the odds for on axis is meaningless. That is a very hard skill to do with consistency.
    Last edited by Three; 02-14-2019 at 05:09 PM.

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    How do you improve on that skill, buying a crap table that a expensive and practice rolls or purchase the software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbest1966 View Post
    How do you improve on that skill, buying a crap table that a expensive and practice rolls or purchase the software.

    Do you honestly believe anyone is legitimately going to volunteer to you that information or are you pathetically naive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    It's not voodoo. It is just a skill few can master. I have seen a few that are good enough to have a big advantage betting hop bets. Those that don't have it try to make money betting the pass line. If you have the skill you change the actual odds of what will come up. It doesn't take a genius to figure out your biggest edges will be on the big payout bets. The skewing of the actual from the random has its biggest rewards with higher payouts.

    For example, to illustrate how to best take advantage of odds of the game if you can skew the actual: A hop bet pays pays 15:1 for something that randomly hits 1 out of every 18 times, or pays 30:1 and randomly hits 1 out of 36 times. If you can keep the dice on axis 100% of the time, which nobody can do, there are 16 possible outcomes. The 15:1 payout hits 1 out of ever 8 times (2 out of 16) and the 30:1 payout hits 1 out of every 16 times. While there will be some failed rolls that don't keep both dice on axis there will also be further skewing within the 16 possible on axis outcomes that actually make the odds of success higher then the 1 out of 8 or 1 out of 16 sited.

    The odds you will be that skilled is like the odds of being a hall of fame athlete. So for all practical purposes few that do have an influence on the dice try exploiting hop bets. Maybe the poorer paying cousin the hard way bets is within their reach. But the point is being able to control the dice is just the first step. You have to know how that control affects house edge to target the most exploitable bets for your skill. So first you need to develop the skill, which is not something many can do. Then you have to understand how to use the skill to get an advantage. You need to affect the odds of both rolling winners and losers. Only hop bets are always resolved in one roll. The rest have a subset of possible rolls that are winners and a subset of possible rolls that are losers. The edge on each bet will be determined by how you affect the odds of both. Not just the odds of rolling a loser.

    A fact about dice are that you can't roll a 5 or 9 without having one of the die come up 3 or 4. The 3 and 4 are on opposite sides of the dice. Put those two off axis and if the dice stay on axis you can't roll a 5 or 9. The possible combinations for the 16 on axis possibilities are 4 ways to roll a 7; 2 ways to roll each of 3, 6, 8, and 11; and 1 way each to roll a 2, 4, 10, and 12; and no way to roll a 5 or 9. Can you say lay the 5 and 9? On axis no way to roll a 5 or 9 and 4 ways to roll a 7. Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 5 or 9 (0 ways on axis) for an infinite on axis advantage. Lay bets are great come out roll bets, since a winning seven allows you to keep shooting the dice. On axis point established on 37.5% of random rolls. What about laying the 4 and 10? Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 4 or 10 (2 ways on axis). So you lay the 4 and 10 for $70 each and only lose 1 bet for a $71 loss if the vig is payed on a lose or lose $70 if it is not paid on a lose, but you win both bets for a total of $67 or $68 on a bet you win twice as often as you lose. What about laying the 6 and 8? Bet pair are wins by rolling a 7 (4 ways on axis), and loses by rolling a 6 or 8 (4 ways on axis). So you lay the 6 and 8 for $42 each to win 34 each and only lose 1 bet for a $43, but you win both bets for a total of $67 or $68 on a bet you win as often as you lose.

    So laying the 4, 5, 9, and 10 on the come-out wins $135 to $136 but can only lose at most $71 and wins twice as often as it losses in the 16 possible on axis rolls. Two thirds of the on axis come-out rolls that establish a point don't cost you anything but you likely rolled on or more come-out sevens before establishing a point. Now that is a pretty fat edge even with some rare off axis throws averaging in.

    Hard ways 4 and 10 are similar with the 3 and 4 set off axis. On axis there is 1 way to win and 4 ways to lose on a bet that pays 7:1.

    But you have to have the skill of landing the dice flat so they move on axis with their forward momentum and keeping them from doing much after they land. If you can't do that all the odds for on axis is meaningless. That is a very hard skill to do with consistency.
    It's complete bullshit!!! Just like your super duper count bull. I've seen these scammers playing as well. They couldn't controll squat.

  9. #9
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    See: https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/en...-Bryce-Carlson

    Embarrassing to see this posted here.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    See: https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/en...-Bryce-Carlson

    Embarrassing to see this posted here.
    I think it is funny that Carlson thought that subjective review of video would tell if dice control is possible. It is easy to test if dice control is happening if control is defined by keeping the dice on axis. You just use two different colored dice and start tracking the results from setting them the same each time you throw them and making sure the same color is always on the same side. Easy peasy with no argument about results. There is no subjective analysis about it. The results of practice day after day, year after year either shows consistent control or it doesn't. I tell anyone that wants to do DC to take this exercise into their daily practice. You are crazy to go to the casino and attempt DC if you haven't tested to see whether or not you are actually influencing the dice. It doesn't matter how pretty the throw looks if it is consistent in the short term time and time again.

    This reminds me of when I went into this guys little archery shop that is only known about by word of mouth. He used to train olympic archers how to shoot and was sure he could get me to shoot better. Now I can shoot really accurately but wasn't going to pass up the chance for such a high caliber coach to give me advice. I had always practiced from all kinds of bizarre positions because when you are hunting you can't always use a classic style and need to be able to shoot accurately. So on the appointed day I met the guy behind his shop and shot a 4 arrows at his target. He watched me shoot and afterward said he couldn't help me because I was literally doing everything wrong. I thanked him for his time and went down to the target and pulled my quarter sized group of arrows out of the target while trying not to laugh about the absurdity of his comments that someone that got great results while shooting needed to use his idea of what the perfect shot looked like.

    Carlson's investigation sounds like this olympic archery coach. It is all worried about what he thinks successful control should look like and spent years reviewing tape when he could go and record the results of one dice controller in one afternoon and tell if that individual had any hope that he was influencing the dice by simply using the same dice setting with different colored dice with a dedicated color for the right die and a different color for the left die and recording the results for each die on each throw in a series of small sets of throws. He could have saved himself a lot of time investigating. I am sure if he found the right subject he would have seen extreme control on both dice.

  11. #11
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    I had a craps table that I payed a craftsman to custom build, I had been taught the throw long before Golden Touch Craps was around. I used two different colored dice to track what each die did on each practice throw. You have to practice landing the dice where you need to in order to avoid the obstacles on a craps table with bets on it and landing the dice close enough to the back wall that they can't say you aren't trying to hit it but have them do so little after hitting the felt that they don't hit the back wall. I wore holes in the felt within an inch or two of the wall a little bigger than a pair of dice. I kept record in blocks of 24 and set random as 16 out of 24 since 2/3rds of a die's random results are on axis. The left die, which I had much better control of, averaged about 21 or 22 on axis throws out of 24, with a range of 20 to 24. The right die I never got below 16 out of 24 but didn't average much over that, averaging around close to 18 on axis throws out of 24 with a range of 16 to 20 out of 24. But you have to realize the fact that you can keep the dice on axis more doesn't mean the 16 possible on axis results will have equal likelihood. That complicates calculating true odds some. With the weaker control of the right die I could still make money but if I control the right as well as the left I would have been like those are few that are like hall of fame athletes. No matter how much practice I put in it, my control of the right die remained weak. I focused on rolling sixes and eights and place bet those numbers. I didn't worry much about not rolling losing sevens because I knew rolling winners was more important. I avoided the seven a little more than average but not much. But I rolled a huge increase in sixes and eights.

    I quit decades ago because there was no longer a standard landing surface. I knew what the dice would do on a standard craps table like my practice table, but once there was no standard I didn't trust the math of it anymore. If I ever did get the kind of control of the right die that I had on the left die I probably would still be doing it.

    I always think it is funny that people who believe they control the dice worry about the HE on the bets they make. The HE is calculated for random rolls. Your edge would be calculated based on your true distribution of rolls and how they measure up against the pay table. Establishing a point and then avoiding a seven out a bit longer doesn't do any good unless you roll your point at or more often than average. You may be avoiding the point number as well when you avoid a seven out. If you can roll winners more often than randomly expected you don't have to avoid the seven better than random to have an edge.

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    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    According to the laws of aerodynamics, a bumble bee can't fly but tell that to a bumble bee!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    According to the laws of aerodynamics, a bumble bee can't fly but tell that to a bumble bee!
    I looked up where this stupid saying came from and found some interesting things. Obviously, this saying makes no sense because if this was true than either the laws of aerodynamics are wrong or a bubble bee flying is an illusion of our imagination.

    This myth came from using calculations on how planes fly. Here’s the problem with that: A bubble bee is not shaped like a plane and it doesn’t fly like a plane. Other than that, these are great assumptions for modeling bubble bees flying. Lol.

    I doubt if I’m going to be able to stop this ongoing myth by posting this on this forum, but I thought some would be interested in this information. At least you can do your part in stopping the spread of this myth, as if it matters, right?

    Look it up. There is actually quite a few articles on how this stupid myth got started.

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