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Thread: VCBJ - Question about hands that are played differently by composition

  1. #1
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    VCBJ - Question about hands that are played differently by composition

    Hey,

    I want to mention that I used the search before I wrote this thread, but I didnt find anything answering my question.

    I'm just was practicing normal counting with CVBJ - as the game alertet me once again of a playing error. I was having a 3-Card 16
    vs a dealer's ten - and my hand included a 5. Since I follow the "45-Rule" (stand on 3-Card 16 vs 10 if a 4 or 5 is in Hand) the game still
    gives me the Error-Message when I play it this way (contrary to basic strategy that says hit 16 vs 10 (on low count)).

    My question now: Is there a possability to tell the game in the strategysection, that its correct to stay 3-Card 16 vs 10 sometimes (like when I hold a 4 or 5)?

    Hope you guys can help me out.

    Thanks in advance,
    Alex

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    Quote Originally Posted by SircOlman View Post
    Hey,

    I want to mention that I used the search before I wrote this thread, but I didnt find anything answering my question.

    I'm just was practicing normal counting with CVBJ - as the game alertet me once again of a playing error. I was having a 3-Card 16
    vs a dealer's ten - and my hand included a 5. Since I follow the "45-Rule" (stand on 3-Card 16 vs 10 if a 4 or 5 is in Hand) the game still
    gives me the Error-Message when I play it this way (contrary to basic strategy that says hit 16 vs 10 (on low count)).

    My question now: Is there a possability to tell the game in the strategysection, that its correct to stay 3-Card 16 vs 10 sometimes (like when I hold a 4 or 5)?

    Hope you guys can help me out.

    Thanks in advance,
    Alex
    Are you playing the game simply for BS, or are you playing using a count system? If the latter, your three-card rule has no bearing, and you use the count to make the proper hit/stand play. If the count was negative, you would hit your hand regardless of the composition, so if you stood, the software was telling you that you made an error.

    Don

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    Hey Don,

    at first, thank you for the answer

    I'm still using the REKO-count, since I just (2 month?) started learning to count. I just checked out your answer with the "wizardOfOdds" handcalculating-tool and found that you are (what a surprise ) right!
    On low count I hit 3-card 16 vs 10 regardless of the composition. But how about a remaining deckcomposition with a truecount of 0 (or lets say a full 6 deck shoe)? There are some hands
    that you are better off with staying than hitting, but not with all of them (calculated with above mentioned tool). Is that something the pro's (or related to my question: the software) ignore/s?

    Thanks in advance,
    Alex
    Last edited by SircOlman; 01-06-2019 at 12:41 AM.

  4. #4
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    You could use the Composition-Dependent function to add CD indices. But, its better to just use the running count, even for a true counted system.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    From looking at the data some strong adjustment for composition dependent hands are neutral cards and key cards. You can act like you just started side counting those cards and make the appropriate adjustment for the cards you see on the table. It requires knowing how to adjust for cards that affect each matchup that has strong card effects. The effect was most obvious in pitch games on composition dependent insurance plays that had different indices depending on the hand composition (two neutral card hands altered the index), which is what made me realize the effect of key cards that aren't counted or are counted very wrong by your count. But you should use all the visible cards on the table, not just the cards in the matchup.

    I am not saying there is a ton of EV gain there, but if you want to start splitting hairs with this topic this approach is far more powerful than composition dependent matchup decisions, but that is not saying much. Look at very small numbers, .005 is 5 times greater than .001. Flip how you look at it and the difference between .995 and .999 is insignificant. So while it is correct to say that it is 5 times greater, it is also correct to say the difference is insignificant. Just a bit of perspective on weighing what things are worth. This principle is why buying multiple mega jackpot lottery tickets doesn't really impact the odds that you will win the top prize despite increasing your odds by a multiple equal to the number of tickets you buy.

    An example DD hilo 1 deck left considering insurance:
    Hilo: T,TvA with no neutral cards in other hands on the table. 1/4 deck of cards on the table expects to see 3 neutral cards among them (one each 7, 8, and 9, aces seen would require a bigger adjustment because they are counted wrong in the main count) but you see none so the surplus of neutral cards is 3 per the 7/4ths of a deck you don't have neutral card info on.

    Not considering neutral cards on the table:
    RC +4. Insurance index TC +3 with TC +4. You would take insurance.

    Consider the composition of the quarter deck of cards on the table:
    You have 3 surplus neutral cards (because there are none on thehe table) but for the side count there are 7/4ths of a deck of uncounted cards not 1 deck of unseen cards. So the TC is adjusted down 1 point per neutral card TC. The neutral card TC 12/7ths, (3/(7/4)). So the floored, adjusted for neutral cards on the table, TC is TC +2 (TC +2.3 to one decimal place). A more accurate decision using all the info available changes the decision to no insurance taken.

    The impact of this is small in shoe games because you use 23/4ths to 6 decks uncounted neutral cards as your divisor. But due to far fewer uncounted decks concerning the key cards (neutral cards in this case) for DD or especially SD the neutral card adjustment can be significant enough to alter your decision often enough or move the adjusted TC enough to be worth considering when key cards on the table are far from what is expected for the number of cards on the table.

    Of course for other matchups the key cards change and the adjustment per key card changes. But the principle is the same. If you want more accurate play for pitch games by using all available information, especially SD games, you might consider this. Yes the seen cards may have a surplus or deficit of key cards, but on average this will give you the most accurate decisions which is how index plays are generated, the average in the long run. So this technique will increase the accuracy of your overall decisions especially for SD games, but also for DD games. There is not much application for this in shoe games unless the key cards have a larger adjustment. Some matchups have pretty large adjustments for certain key cards.

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