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Thread: Can anyone explain this to me?

  1. #92


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    And that’s not what I teach the newbees under my wing. My philosophy is very different than the BJA group. I teach newbees the game, to respect the casino, to tip and to play within casino tolerance. And I don’t charge them a dime...in fact, many times I buy them meals.
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Why do either of you bother reading his posts?
    21forme, where else will you get stories like the above? The man not only buys dinners for beggars but also teaches them how to play blackjack. Sort of like the story of teaching a man how to fish and he will never go hungry again theory. Forgetting the fact that the beggars do not have a starting stake to begin with, Dbs thinks, who cares I made friends anyway.

  2. #93


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    Bosox - I wouldn't know. Like you, I've been doing this a long time and I don't need the entertainment nor have patience for reading drivel. dbs has been on my ignore list since shortly after he arrived here.

  3. #94


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    21forme, where else will you get stories like the above? The man not only buys dinners for beggars but also teaches them how to play blackjack. Sort of like the story of teaching a man how to fish and he will never go hungry again theory. Forgetting the fact that the beggars do not have a starting stake to begin with, Dbs thinks, who cares I made friends anyway.
    Yeah, it’s called being a compassionate AP. I know this is very rare. Most APs brag about how they stiff dealers.

  4. #95


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Bosox - I wouldn't know. Like you, I've been doing this a long time and I don't need the entertainment nor have patience for reading drivel. dbs has been on my ignore list since shortly after he arrived here.
    21forme, if I’m on your ignore list, why do you keep responding to my posts. Here’s a clue. Probably because I’m not on your ignore list.

    This brings me back to Three and one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen on this forum. He responded to one of my posts by showing me he had me on his ignore list. You can’t make this stuff up if you tried. It’s better ham a Satruday Live skit.

  5. #96


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    21forme, where else will you get stories like the above? The man not only buys dinners for beggars but also teaches them how to play blackjack. Sort of like the story of teaching a man how to fish and he will never go hungry again theory. Forgetting the fact that the beggars do not have a starting stake to begin with, Dbs thinks, who cares I made friends anyway.
    Bosox, picking up a tab has nothing to with the great Chinese proverb you've stated above. This proverb has to do with giving someone a handout for doing nothing. It’s better to teach him how to work, which I think everybody would agree with.

    Btw, since I do well I’ve always tried to pick up the tab, but I don’t make a big deal about it. If the group wants to split it, then we split it. If I go out to eat with someone I know isn’t as well off as me, then I always offer to pick up the tab. I remember when I was in school and people did that for me.

    I also tip the same if I’m in a restaurant or in a casino. I know this goes against typical AP thinking. I don’t penalize a waitress/waiter in a casino by not giving them a tip just because they decided to work in a casino rather than a restaurant. I also don’t penalize a dealer for working in a casino by not tipping them since I know much of their wages comes from tips. Like I said, I’m not your typical AP, which is probably why people feel uncomfortable with my posts.

  6. #97


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    If I go out to eat with someone I know isn’t as well off as me, then I always offer to pick up the tab.
    You wouldn't happen to be coming down to the MGM in western Mass, would you? I will put on my home yard work clothes as I would enjoy the lessons and a free lunch.

  7. #98


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Don't feel sorry for Freightman he leisurely sits in a pastry shop five days a week without a care in the world. Me I get all my comfort watching Fox news.
    I got pissed off at the bakery. I now frequent a specialty coffee house. I order my coffee, Of course, anD either a toasted bagel, a date square, or an oatmeal raisin cookie.

  8. #99


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    I got pissed off at the bakery. I now frequent a specialty coffee house. I order my coffee, Of course, anD either a toasted bagel, a date square, or an oatmeal raisin cookie.
    Chocolate Croissant with espresso sounds nice right now!

    Are they kosher, though?

  9. #100


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    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Chocolate Croissant with espresso sounds nice right now!

    Are they kosher, though?
    Not at this joint, though I was in Toronto in October, and found a totally kosher Second Cup. All of pastries as well as all of the sandwiches were labelled, and under “COR” supervision. It was obviously in a Jewish area.

  10. #101
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I went to their Bootcamp. It paid for itself with the info I learned by networking at it. 3k is a bit much. They used to not charge so much. I think it's a supply and demand thing. They have a decently high demand even with those prices. If someone was willing to pay me 3k to teach them hilo of course I'd do it lol. If no one went the price would be a lot less. Famous people like Tommy Hyland sometimes show up and talk at them too. For someone new to counting who can afford the 3k price tag, it is worth it. They will check out your game and get you thinking like an AP in ways you won't necessarily find in the books. The best bit is the networking imo. Forming friendships with other counters is great in this otherwise lonely endeavour.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    Don't you get to go to subsequent boot camps for free ?
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

  11. #102


    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    How many people in this thread have actually attended a boot camp? My guess is very little, if any. But many of you seem to have strong opinions regarding the matter. I have not attended a BJA boot camp as an attendee, but I have spent a lot of time at the boot camp house while they were in session. Many of my AP friends are associated with BJA one way or another and here's what I can tell you about their camp:

    1) The boot camp is way more than just learning +1 and -1. The boot camp usually has many pros in attendance to help teach new counters some of the nuances that many of us learn over the course of our career. I think I saw someone post something like: You'll pay for your education one way or another. Maybe by attending a seminar or by making costly mistakes on your own due to lack of experience. Let's face it, is the act of actually counting cards difficult? No. But learning the necessary nuances to be successful in this business is.

    2) BJA is very well connected/networked. Last year, I was able to meet John Chang (MIT team leader), Arnold Snyder, Anthony Curtis, Tommy Hyland, and other highly skilled APs through BJA's events. BJA occasionally has some of these guys make appearances at the boot camp to give guest talks and Q&A.

    3) Colin does an amazing job organizing his boot camps and runs his business like a well-oiled machine. His camps are very well organized and informative. You learn a lot of great information in a very short amount of time.

    4) Can you learn how to be a competent counter completely on your own? Of course you can! But this route allows you skip a lot of the trial and error and accelerates your education. The boot camp helps build your AP network tremendously literally overnight.

    Most pros I know could never achieve their level of success without a proper network. Ask any serious AP! Networking is everything! When you start getting into higher stakes, constantly traveling to play, and start getting backed off a lot just for the size of your stakes, it REALLY helps to know people. It helps to have inside information on which casinos communicate with each other in certain cities. It helps to know which casinos contribute to OSN/Biometrica or which of those casinos even utilize them at all. It's good to know which casinos are relatively "safe" to CTR, because they don't reference the databases and which casinos will look you up immediately the moment they have your name. It's good to know which casinos (or casino chains) it's "safer" to play rated and which ones it's not. It's good to know which casinos will be more likely to back you off instantly and which ones might let you camp for hours on end. It's good to know which casinos have an amazing comp system, so maybe playing rated is worth the potential risk. If you are databased, it's good to know people who can access and share that information with you.

    Without a solid network, obtaining all of this info solely on your own is virtually impossible. Not saying you need to attend a boot camp to build a network, but it damn sure helps! Especially in the beginning! It took me over 2 years to meet my first AP contact face to face. I owe much of my success to the network (friends) I've made along the way.

  12. #103


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    How many people in this thread have actually attended a boot camp? My guess is very little, if any. But many of you seem to have strong opinions regarding the matter. I have not attended a BJA boot camp as an attendee, but I have spent a lot of time at the boot camp house while they were in session. Many of my AP friends are associated with BJA one way or another and here's what I can tell you about their camp:

    1) The boot camp is way more than just learning +1 and -1. The boot camp usually has many pros in attendance to help teach new counters some of the nuances that many of us learn over the course of our career. I think I saw someone post something like: You'll pay for your education one way or another. Maybe by attending a seminar or by making costly mistakes on your own due to lack of experience. Let's face it, is the act of actually counting cards difficult? No. But learning the necessary nuances to be successful in this business is.

    2) BJA is very well connected/networked. Last year, I was able to meet John Chang (MIT team leader), Arnold Snyder, Anthony Curtis, Tommy Hyland, and other highly skilled APs through BJA's events. BJA occasionally has some of these guys make appearances at the boot camp to give guest talks and Q&A.

    3) Colin does an amazing job organizing his boot camps and runs his business like a well-oiled machine. His camps are very well organized and informative. You learn a lot of great information in a very short amount of time.

    4) Can you learn how to be a competent counter completely on your own? Of course you can! But this route allows you skip a lot of the trial and error and accelerates your education. The boot camp helps build your AP network tremendously literally overnight.

    Most pros I know could never achieve their level of success without a proper network. Ask any serious AP! Networking is everything! When you start getting into higher stakes, constantly traveling to play, and start getting backed off a lot just for the size of your stakes, it REALLY helps to know people. It helps to have inside information on which casinos communicate with each other in certain cities. It helps to know which casinos contribute to OSN/Biometrica or which of those casinos even utilize them at all. It's good to know which casinos are relatively "safe" to CTR, because they don't reference the databases and which casinos will look you up immediately the moment they have your name. It's good to know which casinos (or casino chains) it's "safer" to play rated and which ones it's not. It's good to know which casinos will be more likely to back you off instantly and which ones might let you camp for hours on end. It's good to know which casinos have an amazing comp system, so maybe playing rated is worth the potential risk. If you are databased, it's good to know people who can access and share that information with you.

    Without a solid network, obtaining all of this info solely on your own is virtually impossible. Not saying you need to attend a boot camp to build a network, but it damn sure helps! Especially in the beginning! It took me over 2 years to meet my first AP contact face to face. I owe much of my success to the network (friends) I've made along the way.
    Reymo, excellent post! But I don’t think most people are debating the value of this bootcamp. Several other people, including me, have made many of the same points you’ve made here.

    I think what most people, including the OP, are questioning is the price. This is, in fact, why the OP started this thread in the first place. He was shocked when he saw the price.

    For all you defenders of what Colin is charging for this bootcamp, I ask you a question: At what price would it shock you? At what price would you believe it was too much? There has got to be a price where even the defenders believe the price doesn’t smell right. Is it $5,000, $10,000, $25,000?

    As far as the value of something, many things bring us much more value than what we pay for it. I think we’d all agree that Don’s book BJA3 and Norm’s software has brought us much more value than its costs. If they charged based on it’s value, Don would be charging $10,000 to $25,000 for his book. I’m glad he doesn’t because I have bought 3 copies. One I keep in my house, one in my car in the trunk (so when I travel I always have it handy when I want to research something), and one I lend to people who are newbees interested in becoming counters.

    I remember actually considering going to this bootcamp about 4 or 5 years ago when I first heard about it. At that time, I had just heard about it and I assumed it’d be about $400 to $500...about what Midwest Player thought it should cost. When I went on their web site and checked, I almost had a cow. I was shocked it cost $2,000. It was a no-brainer for me. I wasn’t going to attend any 2 day bootcamp for that much money (even though I could have easily afforded it) based on principle alone.

    Now they have raised their price by 50% to $3,000, probably because, as Bubbles has said, they can. They have so many people wanting to attend, they can charge about anything for it and get away with it.

    I have stated before (and some have called me out on it) that there will be a point where Colin raises the price so high that it will start looking like he’s taking advantage of the AP crowd, rather than helping them. I’m not saying he’s there yet, but he’s getting close.

    I’ll ask my question one more time because I think it’s a good one: At what point will the price be so high that it doesn’t smell right to you?
    Last edited by Dbs6582; 01-12-2019 at 05:56 AM.

  13. #104


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    I’ll ask my question one more time because I think it’s a good one: At what point will the price be so high that it doesn’t smell right to you?
    You mentioned you thought $400 or $500 would be a fair price point... Ha! I can tell you that I've seen a small glimpse of what Colin goes through to prepare these boot camps. I would never waste my time for a measly $500/head. This is simple economics, no? Demand has to meet Supply.

    Here's what you may not know: Colin does not live in Vegas, so he has to fly into town and travel with many supplies for the boot camp. On top of that, he rents a large house for about a 5 day period, and the rent on that house is very expensive. Roughly about 2.5 to 3x more expensive than what someone might pay for a small apartment in Las Vegas for an entire month! Further more, Colin employs help. Yes, he employs people to help train. Colin cannot train 12+ people on his own! I'm sure he could, but it couldn't be done efficiently. There's 4 or 5 people who are ALWAYS at the boot camp to help train, and their labor IS NOT FREE. And only one of those guys live in Vegas and the rest live out of state. I imagine Colin would covers their travel expenses too. On top of that, Colin provides all of the boot campers with food on Day 1 and takes everyone out to eat on Day 2 after boot camp has concluded. So if you thought Colin is charging 3K per head and only teaching people +1 and -1 and that's it... then you are clearly not seeing the entire picture.
    Last edited by Ryemo; 01-12-2019 at 07:09 AM.

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