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Thread: Can anyone explain this to me?

  1. #101
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I went to their Bootcamp. It paid for itself with the info I learned by networking at it. 3k is a bit much. They used to not charge so much. I think it's a supply and demand thing. They have a decently high demand even with those prices. If someone was willing to pay me 3k to teach them hilo of course I'd do it lol. If no one went the price would be a lot less. Famous people like Tommy Hyland sometimes show up and talk at them too. For someone new to counting who can afford the 3k price tag, it is worth it. They will check out your game and get you thinking like an AP in ways you won't necessarily find in the books. The best bit is the networking imo. Forming friendships with other counters is great in this otherwise lonely endeavour.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    Don't you get to go to subsequent boot camps for free ?
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

  2. #102


    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    How many people in this thread have actually attended a boot camp? My guess is very little, if any. But many of you seem to have strong opinions regarding the matter. I have not attended a BJA boot camp as an attendee, but I have spent a lot of time at the boot camp house while they were in session. Many of my AP friends are associated with BJA one way or another and here's what I can tell you about their camp:

    1) The boot camp is way more than just learning +1 and -1. The boot camp usually has many pros in attendance to help teach new counters some of the nuances that many of us learn over the course of our career. I think I saw someone post something like: You'll pay for your education one way or another. Maybe by attending a seminar or by making costly mistakes on your own due to lack of experience. Let's face it, is the act of actually counting cards difficult? No. But learning the necessary nuances to be successful in this business is.

    2) BJA is very well connected/networked. Last year, I was able to meet John Chang (MIT team leader), Arnold Snyder, Anthony Curtis, Tommy Hyland, and other highly skilled APs through BJA's events. BJA occasionally has some of these guys make appearances at the boot camp to give guest talks and Q&A.

    3) Colin does an amazing job organizing his boot camps and runs his business like a well-oiled machine. His camps are very well organized and informative. You learn a lot of great information in a very short amount of time.

    4) Can you learn how to be a competent counter completely on your own? Of course you can! But this route allows you skip a lot of the trial and error and accelerates your education. The boot camp helps build your AP network tremendously literally overnight.

    Most pros I know could never achieve their level of success without a proper network. Ask any serious AP! Networking is everything! When you start getting into higher stakes, constantly traveling to play, and start getting backed off a lot just for the size of your stakes, it REALLY helps to know people. It helps to have inside information on which casinos communicate with each other in certain cities. It helps to know which casinos contribute to OSN/Biometrica or which of those casinos even utilize them at all. It's good to know which casinos are relatively "safe" to CTR, because they don't reference the databases and which casinos will look you up immediately the moment they have your name. It's good to know which casinos (or casino chains) it's "safer" to play rated and which ones it's not. It's good to know which casinos will be more likely to back you off instantly and which ones might let you camp for hours on end. It's good to know which casinos have an amazing comp system, so maybe playing rated is worth the potential risk. If you are databased, it's good to know people who can access and share that information with you.

    Without a solid network, obtaining all of this info solely on your own is virtually impossible. Not saying you need to attend a boot camp to build a network, but it damn sure helps! Especially in the beginning! It took me over 2 years to meet my first AP contact face to face. I owe much of my success to the network (friends) I've made along the way.

  3. #103


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    How many people in this thread have actually attended a boot camp? My guess is very little, if any. But many of you seem to have strong opinions regarding the matter. I have not attended a BJA boot camp as an attendee, but I have spent a lot of time at the boot camp house while they were in session. Many of my AP friends are associated with BJA one way or another and here's what I can tell you about their camp:

    1) The boot camp is way more than just learning +1 and -1. The boot camp usually has many pros in attendance to help teach new counters some of the nuances that many of us learn over the course of our career. I think I saw someone post something like: You'll pay for your education one way or another. Maybe by attending a seminar or by making costly mistakes on your own due to lack of experience. Let's face it, is the act of actually counting cards difficult? No. But learning the necessary nuances to be successful in this business is.

    2) BJA is very well connected/networked. Last year, I was able to meet John Chang (MIT team leader), Arnold Snyder, Anthony Curtis, Tommy Hyland, and other highly skilled APs through BJA's events. BJA occasionally has some of these guys make appearances at the boot camp to give guest talks and Q&A.

    3) Colin does an amazing job organizing his boot camps and runs his business like a well-oiled machine. His camps are very well organized and informative. You learn a lot of great information in a very short amount of time.

    4) Can you learn how to be a competent counter completely on your own? Of course you can! But this route allows you skip a lot of the trial and error and accelerates your education. The boot camp helps build your AP network tremendously literally overnight.

    Most pros I know could never achieve their level of success without a proper network. Ask any serious AP! Networking is everything! When you start getting into higher stakes, constantly traveling to play, and start getting backed off a lot just for the size of your stakes, it REALLY helps to know people. It helps to have inside information on which casinos communicate with each other in certain cities. It helps to know which casinos contribute to OSN/Biometrica or which of those casinos even utilize them at all. It's good to know which casinos are relatively "safe" to CTR, because they don't reference the databases and which casinos will look you up immediately the moment they have your name. It's good to know which casinos (or casino chains) it's "safer" to play rated and which ones it's not. It's good to know which casinos will be more likely to back you off instantly and which ones might let you camp for hours on end. It's good to know which casinos have an amazing comp system, so maybe playing rated is worth the potential risk. If you are databased, it's good to know people who can access and share that information with you.

    Without a solid network, obtaining all of this info solely on your own is virtually impossible. Not saying you need to attend a boot camp to build a network, but it damn sure helps! Especially in the beginning! It took me over 2 years to meet my first AP contact face to face. I owe much of my success to the network (friends) I've made along the way.
    Reymo, excellent post! But I don’t think most people are debating the value of this bootcamp. Several other people, including me, have made many of the same points you’ve made here.

    I think what most people, including the OP, are questioning is the price. This is, in fact, why the OP started this thread in the first place. He was shocked when he saw the price.

    For all you defenders of what Colin is charging for this bootcamp, I ask you a question: At what price would it shock you? At what price would you believe it was too much? There has got to be a price where even the defenders believe the price doesn’t smell right. Is it $5,000, $10,000, $25,000?

    As far as the value of something, many things bring us much more value than what we pay for it. I think we’d all agree that Don’s book BJA3 and Norm’s software has brought us much more value than its costs. If they charged based on it’s value, Don would be charging $10,000 to $25,000 for his book. I’m glad he doesn’t because I have bought 3 copies. One I keep in my house, one in my car in the trunk (so when I travel I always have it handy when I want to research something), and one I lend to people who are newbees interested in becoming counters.

    I remember actually considering going to this bootcamp about 4 or 5 years ago when I first heard about it. At that time, I had just heard about it and I assumed it’d be about $400 to $500...about what Midwest Player thought it should cost. When I went on their web site and checked, I almost had a cow. I was shocked it cost $2,000. It was a no-brainer for me. I wasn’t going to attend any 2 day bootcamp for that much money (even though I could have easily afforded it) based on principle alone.

    Now they have raised their price by 50% to $3,000, probably because, as Bubbles has said, they can. They have so many people wanting to attend, they can charge about anything for it and get away with it.

    I have stated before (and some have called me out on it) that there will be a point where Colin raises the price so high that it will start looking like he’s taking advantage of the AP crowd, rather than helping them. I’m not saying he’s there yet, but he’s getting close.

    I’ll ask my question one more time because I think it’s a good one: At what point will the price be so high that it doesn’t smell right to you?
    Last edited by Dbs6582; 01-12-2019 at 06:56 AM.

  4. #104


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    I’ll ask my question one more time because I think it’s a good one: At what point will the price be so high that it doesn’t smell right to you?
    You mentioned you thought $400 or $500 would be a fair price point... Ha! I can tell you that I've seen a small glimpse of what Colin goes through to prepare these boot camps. I would never waste my time for a measly $500/head. This is simple economics, no? Demand has to meet Supply.

    Here's what you may not know: Colin does not live in Vegas, so he has to fly into town and travel with many supplies for the boot camp. On top of that, he rents a large house for about a 5 day period, and the rent on that house is very expensive. Roughly about 2.5 to 3x more expensive than what someone might pay for a small apartment in Las Vegas for an entire month! Further more, Colin employs help. Yes, he employs people to help train. Colin cannot train 12+ people on his own! I'm sure he could, but it couldn't be done efficiently. There's 4 or 5 people who are ALWAYS at the boot camp to help train, and their labor IS NOT FREE. And only one of those guys live in Vegas and the rest live out of state. I imagine Colin would covers their travel expenses too. On top of that, Colin provides all of the boot campers with food on Day 1 and takes everyone out to eat on Day 2 after boot camp has concluded. So if you thought Colin is charging 3K per head and only teaching people +1 and -1 and that's it... then you are clearly not seeing the entire picture.
    Last edited by Ryemo; 01-12-2019 at 08:09 AM.

  5. #105


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    You mentioned you thought $400 or $500 would be a fair price point... Ha! I can tell you that I've seen a small glimpse of what Colin goes through to prepare these boot camps. I would never waste my time for a measly $500/head. This is simple economics, no? Demand has to meet Supply.

    Here's what you may not know: Colin does not live in Vegas, so he has to fly into town and travel with many supplies for the boot camp. On top of that, he rents a large house for about a 5 day period, and the rent on that house is very expensive. Roughly about 2.5 to 3x more expensive than what someone might pay for a small apartment in Las Vegas for an entire month! Further more, Colin employs help. Yes, he employs people to help train. Colin cannot train 12+ people on his own! I'm sure he could, but it couldn't be done efficiently. There's 4 or 5 people who are ALWAYS at the boot camp to help train, and their labor IS NOT FREE. And only one of those guys live in Vegas and the rest live out of state. I imagine Colin would covers their travel expenses too. On top of that, Colin provides all of the boot campers with food on Day 1 and takes everyone out to eat on Day 2 after boot camp has concluded. So if you thought Colin is charging 3K per head and only teaching people +1 and -1 and that's it... then you are clearly not seeing the entire picture.
    Reymo, you never answered my question. I thought it was a good one. I’ll give you that my initial assessment of $400 to $500 was probably wrong, but this was all I was willing to pay for a class like this. I’ve said this many times. Colin has EVERY right to charge as much as he wants. It’s up to the consumer if he/she wants to pay his price. I choose not to. That is my right. Others have chosen to pay that price. That is their right.

    Now back to my question. At what price do you think Colin will be charging too much? Or do you believe it will be okay for him to charge $25,000 for a two day bootcamp? From a free market standpoint, I believe he should be able to charge as much as he can get away with. But from a business standpoint, I believe there will come a point where his price looks like he’s gouging people. Charging too much can backfire on him. It could be a windfall in the short term, but it could hurt his business long term. That’s why this thread was started...some were shocked at the price. I’m sure this is not the type of publicity Colin wanted for his bootcamp.

    As far as this bootcamp, I personally don’t know think it would bring me any value. I know their philosophy when it comes to AP blackjack. It’s 100% different than mine, and what is taught in most books. Have you listened to the Joe GWAE podcast? Have you been on their forum? THEY BELIEVE IN PLAYING AND BETTING WITH NO COVER. Their motto is “don’t fear the backoff”. It’s actually one of their Ten Commandments. They believe in blasting away until you get backed off...that there is always another casino down the road. They believe in a lot of travel, which is a must with this type of playing strategy. They don’t teach you “how to get away with it”, which is really the most important thing in card counting. Learning to card count is simple...learning to “get away with it” is hard.

    Personally, I don’t know why the course is two days since they don’t teach cover or playing strategies. I would think it should only last about 2 hours since it mostly involves networking and meeting Tommy Hyland. Most people who go to it already know Hilo anyway. People could just stop by and pay their $3K, get each other’s phone numbers, shake Tommy’s hand and be on their way. What am I missing?

    Btw, buying meals and supplying food doesn’t justify a $3,000 price tag. All that food might come to an extra $100/head. It surely doesn’t justify raising the price from $2,000 to $3,000.
    Last edited by Dbs6582; 01-12-2019 at 11:59 AM.

  6. #106


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    The amount you believe to be "too much" obviously varies person by person. For someone like me, paying even $500 would be too much, but that's because by the time I met Colin, I was already an established counter with a pretty big network. So for me, I would be just be experiencing the law of diminishing returns by attending his camp. But if I was a new counter with a decent size roll, no network and very little to no skills... then the 3K doesn't seem unreasonable anymore. In that case, it might be a pretty wise investment. So you can't slap a one-size-fits-all sticker on his product.

    "Have you listened to the Joe GWAE podcast? Have you been on their forum?"

    Yes and yes. Joe is a personal friend of mine and I am on their forum. I was well aware of Joe's story before his GWAE interview. My style aligns pretty similarly with theirs. Yours doesn't. Cool. End of story then. Boot camp would have very little value for you. Nothing wrong with that. Now let's move on.


    P.S. Your assessment about what their boot camp can offer you is still very misguided and wrong in my opinion. I'm not going to post an itinerary here, but I can say I think you're wrong. Unless you've attended or know somebody who has, then maybe you should keep your assumptions to yourself? Many posters (or ex posters) here love to deliver such strong opinions on matters they don't have the slightest clue about. It's kind of annoying and one of the reasons I don't post much here anymore.

    Anyway, I'm moving on. I've said what I felt needed to be said.

  7. #107


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    The charge for private instruction is $5,000 for 2 days. Just think this poor instructor doesn't need a college degree or even be a high school graduate to teach. However, the demand is so great he can work for 2 days a week for 50 weeks and make $250,000 a year. Sounds like a great job to me. Okay maybe I exaggerated a little. No matter how you look at it, it is expensive.

    I decided to see if others are also charging outrageous prices. It appears others are lower. One guy would travel to where you live which was included in the price. Here is a link to an article that mentions some pricing.
    http://tech.mit.edu/V124/N42/42blackjack.42n.html

    https://www.blackjackscience.com/ser...ls.php?id=9920
    Last edited by Midwest Player; 01-12-2019 at 12:55 PM.

  8. #108


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    Out of all the hundreds of stupid threads on here, this may take the cake. Peace out all.

  9. #109


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    I would think it would depend upon the person. Some people need a teacher because they aren't good at learning from a book or a video. Also, they must have some money unless they are total idiots and are trying to play blackjack with little or no money. If the AP shares some experience, how much is that worth? I would compare it to any kind of college level learning. How much do the colleges charge? Perhaps the $3000.00 they spend will illustrate to them that trying to play blackjack is not for them, so they will save perhaps tens of thousands in the long run.

  10. #110


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    What some of us do is look for reviews before we decide to buy stuff. Have any of you googled, found reviews?

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