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Thread: What count system do you use and why?

  1. #21


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    See my posts under the title Adding AA78mTc side count to High Low.

    For the shoe game, my suggestion if the player insists on balanced counts, is to use HL (High Low) with AA78mTc.

    If the player does not mind unbalanced counts, then use KO with AA89mTc which is better.
    Last edited by bjanalyst; 12-24-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  2. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by bjanalyst View Post
    See my posts under the title Adding AA78mTc side count to High Low.

    For the shoe game, my suggestion if the player insists on balanced counts, is to use HL (High Low) with AA78mTc.

    If the player does not mind unbalanced counts, then use KO with AA89mTc which is better.
    While I am sure your intentions are good, giving categorical advice to all players of all skill levels to use your unsimmed system is bad guidance.

    Even if you are correct with your analysis, there will be a minority of advantage players that adapt your offering. At best, your system can be considered by the seasoned full time AP as perhaps a way to glean a small percentage improvement in playing efficiency and having little, if any, impact to EV without improving betting efficiency.

    The overall purpose of an AP is to win, not just be mathmatically correct. Much of the attributes required to be successful are outside of the count system used to determine I have an advantage.

    I do support you publishing your books with the hope some minority AP players may have enough of either a genuine or intellectual interest to sim it and report back on the results. Or I would suggest, if you arer truly commited to this, then buy CVDATA and conduct your own sim, you may learn something. Needing an independent to validate may be true AFTER you have validated. I am not suggesting it is not correct, but that it does not materially improve the results for most AP's even when executed perfectly, which is of question due to the percieived added complexity.

    Are you sure you can see the forest for the trees?

    If you want to do something more productive, develop a betting system with effective levels of cover while maintaining adequate EV.

    Improving longevity is worth so much more than improving my count.

    Just saying........
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Much of the attributes required to be successful are outside of the count system used to determine I have an advantage.
    Very true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    If you want to do something more productive, develop a betting system with effective levels of cover while maintaining adequate EV.

    Improving longevity is worth so much more than improving my count.
    Exactly. This is what I think the best use of complexity is. Of course complexity is not the only way to achieve this goal. Some things that increase longevity can't be fine tuned by your count. But with other things, complexity allows increased longevity to be achieved at the lowest cost to EV. If you spend some of the possible EV gain from betting more at the same RoR, by not betting as much more as you can, on longevity concerns you can target things that will help longevity and other targeted concerns.

  4. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    mproving longevity is worth so much more than improving my count
    Damn it! just couple days ago I got very polite words "Mr. cc12b, we welcome you to play any machine but no table games" from a store. So far, it seems no flyer yet as other stores still let me play bj. but that makes me scale down my spread.

  5. #25
    Senior Member BigJer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21frogman View Post
    BigJer, "...trying to learn it"? You should have no problem with it.

    If you're looking for an abbreviated form, years ago I simmed HiOpt II w ASC & found very little loss in EV by confining departures from BS to counts between 8 & -8.
    I know. I just busy these days.
    My Ability in Blackjack is a Gift from God!!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21frogman View Post
    If you're looking for an abbreviated form, years ago I simmed HiOpt II w ASC & found very little loss in EV by confining departures from BS to counts between 8 & -8.
    There is little loss in long term EV. Decisions are made in the shortest of terms, namely by round. When you have the matchup with a monster bet out it often makes a big difference on that round. The trouble with the long term is it takes so long to get there. Some players using weak systems in poor games that don't play much may never make the long run in their life. The nature of rare events, like getting a count high enough to make the deviation and getting the matchup, is they will stack up in a short period of time while seem to never happen for long periods of time. They rarely come at regular intervals. When you factor in, when you get that high count, much of the time you will get a bunch of rounds in at the high count that makes this nature of rare events even more true for counting cards.

    It is your call if you want to play for the long run or make the most of short run opportunities with big bets out. I try to be prepared to make the most of every max bet opportunity. After all, how hard is it to memorize more indices? A little bit of time one day prepares you to make the most of those rare max bet opportunities for the rest of your life. I think we wait too long to get our max bet out to waste any of the opportunity. But that is just me.

  7. #27


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    Three,

    To be clear, I am an occasional recreational player who revels in the idea that by using my brain, I have an increased chance to beat the house at its own skewed game. Using the HiOpt II ASC 8 to -8 to 8 gives me 66 deviations from BS, which includes Don's Illustrious 18 (although for cover purposes I don't split 10,10 v 5 or 6).

    My suggestion to BigJer was tongue in cheek. He is more serious about BJ than I.

    Questions for you: What is a "monster bet"? Is it greater than your usual max bet? At what TC do you use it?
    Last edited by 21frogman; 12-28-2018 at 11:19 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    I used FELT for about 800 to 1000 hours but i felt the same way as KJ did . It is really not necessary for shoe games IMO ,even though it is not too hard . I did make a few mistakes along with some slow counting from time to time while using FELT .
    What did you not like about the FELT count?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21frogman View Post
    What is a "monster bet"? Is it greater than your usual max bet? At what TC do you use it?
    Max or super max bet. I guess you could include others near the top of your ramp.

    TC would depend on your system. My version of Hiopt2 gets an advantage at much lower TC, starting at TC +1 for a level 4 combined betting count with top tag magnitude of 2 instead of the traditional Hiopt2 count's TC +3. Traditional Hiopt2/ASC reaches max bet at TC +9. Advantage for my version of Hiopt2 slightly exceeds this traditional Hiopt2 advantage when my count is at TC +7. Traditional Hiopt2 has a higher frequency of max bet, while my version has a significantly higher frequency of all the other advantage bets. So my version makes more money from smaller bets while Hiopt2/ASC makes more of its money from max bet. Of course making higher percentage of your EV from smaller bets than your max bet reduces overall variance associated with making more larger bets. The EV is about 5% higher than traditional Hiopt2. So what I use isn't really Hiopt2 even though the main count is Hiopt2. I use a different betting count by using a balanced ace side count and adding half the side count RC to the Hiopt2 RC to calculate a betting TC. I can combine my two counts to make a handful of practical and quite different playing counts by adding different multiples of one count to the other. In theory you could come pretty close to matching the playing EoRs for every matchup by picking the optimal multiple of one count to add to the other to get the matchup's strongest playing count. But in practice I limit the multiples to simple to use fractions close to the optimal multiple. So far sim results are limited to using Hiopt2 as the playing count so EV improvement over traditional Hiopt2 is higher than what I quoted here. How much higher I do not know.

  10. #30


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    Three, thanks for taking the time to further explain your system. While I don't pretend to understand the intricacies involved, I think I have an idea of some of the components and how they may mesh together.

    For my purposes, abbreviating HiOpt II/ASC appears to work adequately.

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