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Thread: Counting Spanish 21

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    Counting Spanish 21

    Hello all! I'm new to the forum and am looking for information for card counting strategies in Spanish 21. There's not a ton of information on it that I can find. I have Katarina Walker's book on order and I was wondering if this knowledge will suffice or if there were alternate methods that have been applied to the game that have a better grasp on it? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2


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    Katarina Walker's book is the book to order and will suffice. Meanwhile, you can learn the strategy from Michael Shackleford's Wizard of Odds. https://wizardofodds.com/games/spanish-21/ Buy an issue of CBJN at BJ21.com to try and find one of the decreasing number of casinos that is offering this game.

  3. #3


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    "Three" on this site is the so called expert on Spanish 21, but he doesn't like to disclose any of his secrets or count. Maybe you can get more info out of him by private email.

  4. #4
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    Kat's book is where to start. The different versions of SP21 are very different. I study the S17 version. Unlike BJ SP21 is extremely non-linear. Because of this traditional approaches to counting cause tremendous volatility. First try to get the game down. The first step is to realize it is a totally and completely different game than BJ, so you shouldn't use anything you learned about BJ when thinking about SP21. It would be like thinking about craps or three card poker, totally misleading and useless. Index play and playing advantage is very important. More important than betting. They take the tens out of the game and add all these advantageous playing rules to make up for it. The key to beating the game efficiently is taking absolutely full and complete advantage of these advantageous rules. That means individual indices for each play. When I say that I mean 13v5 has different indices for a two card hand, a three card hand, a four card hand, a five card hand, a 6 or more card hand, mixed 678 draw, suited 678 draw, and spaded 678 draw. Kat's research makes findings based on weaker index play that are not true with extensive indices. For example Kat's research (worked on with DonS) shows heads up you should pretty much always play 1 hand for peak efficiency. But with the added power from complete index play you almost always are better off playing 2 hands heads up. Don't skimp on learning indices or further researching index play since I don't think what is available out there include adequate index play. Complete index play for my system almost entirely eliminates the HE for the flat bettor.


    The really tricky part is the betting. The EoRs for SP21 are really really squishy. Meaning that the betting EoR for any particular deck composition may be very different than the full deck EoRs. That makes a linear approach to betting very inaccurate because BC is pretty meaningless for this game due to the fact that much of the time, the most important time for ramping your bets, the full deck betting EoRs are very wrong. At least for the whacky deck compositions you hope to bet into. I have seen researchers base their tag values on the betting EoRs of the deck compositions they want to target to help get more accurate bets and bet changes at the deck compositions they hope to exploit.

    I think there are better ways to do things but this is probably an improvement over the traditional approach. The trouble with it is advantage is increased at both ends of the spectrum and you would have even worse betting accuracy at the other end of the spectrum, where betting EoRs are squished the other direction than what you are targeting. This super squishiness of EoRs is where the tremendous volatility of the game for counters is generated.

    Advantage gain can come from doubles and splits, or from bonus payouts. These situations are polar opposites. Counters' bets are usually really inaccurate. The betting bin average advantage is accurate but the range of actual advantage around that average is huge compared to BJ, which is the definition of inaccurate betting. The two things you are trying to accomplish work against one another at several different levels. Getting creative with complexity is the answer to fielding both a strong betting approach and a strong playing approach to the game at the same time.

    Further creativity can allow you to bet more accurately at both ends of the spectrum. Obviously these would not be the same count but obtaining these objectives will help with the games inherent volatility if done correctly. Trying to maximize EV can increase volatility a lot. The better use of complexity is to maximize BR growth which means giving up EV that can be gained in volatile situations in favor of less volatility at the same EV or slightly less EV. But this is a matter of personal preference. I have played both ways and can't understand how someone else that has done the same would choose to increase the volatility of a very volatile game when they can use the same approach to reduce volatility at little to no cost in EV. I guess if you have a BR in the millions maybe the super crazy swings at a $500 table wouldn't concern you.

    But for now you are just trying to learn the game. Kat's book is a must read and a great place to start your journey. But it is just a beginning for the serious player.
    Last edited by Three; 12-15-2018 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Some of the post was not helpful for the skill level of readers here

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    I guess if you have a BR in the millions maybe the super crazy swings at a $500 table wouldn't concern you.
    this is funny. You need multi million bankroll to to play at a $500 max bets for Spanish 21?

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    Thanks Three for your informative posts! I think it's safe to say that I'm nowhere near your level just yet - most of those posts read as jibberish to me! Lol. I'll read through Katarina's book and revisit this soon. I'll keep tabs in this thread also in the event any other great information gets shared by yourself or others.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by nin05 View Post
    ......most of those posts read as jibberish to me! Lol.
    I don't think you are alone.

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    I deleted a message because I realize it confused more people than it helps. I should probably edit my other message for similar reasons.

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    Are there more complete indexes available to study? I'm waiting on katarina's book and kinda made up my own basic counting system for now. It's probably rubbish. I'm getting the impression that in order to master sp21, I will have to create my own legitimate counting system and index? You say to not neglect researching them but also that everything available is inadequate...so by research you mean crunching raw numbers and amending/adding to the available indexes?

    I appreciate your insight on juggling BR and EV, though I don't fully understand it yet, it really opened my eyes to the error in my approach, thought process and strategy. I have been enjoying the h17 tables where u can double down twice. But it's super volatile while my index play is basically guess work and I'm just working on my counting and betting along with basic strategy so far.

    On the EoR topic, what are some examples pf the wacky deck compositions you could target?

    The rest of this rant is just a display of my curiosity and ignorance in the underlying fundamentals of card counting. Feel free to read no further.

    Personally, I see how a higher count is good for raising bets, hitting player bj's and all that, but I don't see how an index can be accurate with aces clumped in value with face cards and such. Like, what if the count is negative from mostly facecards being shown thus far and little to no aces? The dealer could have a very different probability of busting on a 13v5 in certain scenarios with the same true count. Maybe I'm just touting my ignorance here and should just do more research, but nothing I've come across so far has addressed this or dug deep into the math of it all. In regular BJ, which I've barely practiced (though one dealer told me he'd never seen some1 follow the chart so perfectly, lol) the 7-9's are counted as 0. So what if you're hitting those 15's according to the index but you're just working through a shoe with a big clump of 7-9's in the 2nd half? I know counting is said to be an imperfect art. But do you try and take mental note of these discrepancies on top of everything else, or are there other systems that address it?

    Those researchers you mentioned assigning their own tag values based on deck comps they wanted to exploit, well, if the shoe didn't form such a composition wouldn't it all just be null and void? So they only really have an edge during the shoes that fit their liking? And if the EoR differs so much based on deck comp, wouldn't that effect PE as well as BC? I mean, if their assigned values don't accurately reflect your likelihood of winning bets and when to raise, wouldn't they almost certainly fall short in guiding your plays? Like, if you came up with a counting system that expressed the value of the 678 bonuses, it would represent that particular BC more accurately while also making relevant parts of the index more accurate? When you addressed EV and volatility, was that only in regards to betting or also index plays? I'd love to be handed more spanish21 counting systems and indexes on a silver platter, I suck at internetting and research, obviously.

    Basically, email me your life's work please ????

    Hopefully no reads this random dumb rant on a 2 year old post. And by that I mean answers all of my 27 questions ????????????
    Last edited by Sargonian12; 07-26-2020 at 09:13 PM.

  10. #10


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    Three, can you give away what sort of EV you think you have at SP21 ?

  11. #11


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    Thanks for that. Sorry, I didn't look at the date lol
    Yes, I have the book but wondered what sort of edge Three was able to squeeze out of the game...

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sargonian12 View Post
    Are there more complete indexes available to study? I'm waiting on katarina's book and kinda made up my own basic counting system for now. It's probably rubbish. I'm getting the impression that in order to master sp21, I will have to create my own legitimate counting system and index? You say to not neglect researching them but also that everything available is inadequate...so by research you mean crunching raw numbers and amending/adding to the available indexes?

    I appreciate your insight on juggling BR and EV, though I don't fully understand it yet, it really opened my eyes to the error in my approach, thought process and strategy. I have been enjoying the h17 tables where u can double down twice. But it's super volatile while my index play is basically guess work and I'm just working on my counting and betting along with basic strategy so far.

    On the EoR topic, what are some examples pf the wacky deck compositions you could target?

    The rest of this rant is just a display of my curiosity and ignorance in the underlying fundamentals of card counting. Feel free to read no further.

    Personally, I see how a higher count is good for raising bets, hitting player bj's and all that, but I don't see how an index can be accurate with aces clumped in value with face cards and such. Like, what if the count is negative from mostly facecards being shown thus far and little to no aces? The dealer could have a very different probability of busting on a 13v5 in certain scenarios with the same true count. Maybe I'm just touting my ignorance here and should just do more research, but nothing I've come across so far has addressed this or dug deep into the math of it all. In regular BJ, which I've barely practiced (though one dealer told me he'd never seen some1 follow the chart so perfectly, lol) the 7-9's are counted as 0. So what if you're hitting those 15's according to the index but you're just working through a shoe with a big clump of 7-9's in the 2nd half? I know counting is said to be an imperfect art. But do you try and take mental note of these discrepancies on top of everything else, or are there other systems that address it?

    Those researchers you mentioned assigning their own tag values based on deck comps they wanted to exploit, well, if the shoe didn't form such a composition wouldn't it all just be null and void? So they only really have an edge during the shoes that fit their liking? And if the EoR differs so much based on deck comp, wouldn't that effect PE as well as BC? I mean, if their assigned values don't accurately reflect your likelihood of winning bets and when to raise, wouldn't they almost certainly fall short in guiding your plays? Like, if you came up with a counting system that expressed the value of the 678 bonuses, it would represent that particular BC more accurately while also making relevant parts of the index more accurate? When you addressed EV and volatility, was that only in regards to betting or also index plays? I'd love to be handed more spanish21 counting systems and indexes on a silver platter, I suck at internetting and research, obviously.

    Basically, email me your life's work please ????

    Hopefully no reads this random dumb rant on a 2 year old post. And by that I mean answers all of my 27 questions ????????????
    I would recommend trying to find "Secret Monkey Count" on this site. It isn't secret anymore, but was when it first came out (prior to the release of Katarina's book, as I recall). It was created by a former poster here who had "Monkey" in his name- hence the name of the count. It is better than Katarina's count (KatCount), which is unbalanced, and doesn't give the A the power it deserves in Spanish 21. The tags are simply KatCount, but using the A as -2 instead of -1, and starting with zero, as it is balanced. The index plays may even be around here somewhere.....

    I know five people, all of whom used to post online often (I don't believe any currently do) that switched to counting Spanish 21 as their primary game- but all five of them use the S17 game, and not the H17 redoubling game. All of them use counts more advanced than Secret Monkey (which itself is more advanced than KatCount, as mentioned). When I go to casinos (not my full time job- I do have a day one, in the STEM area), I count the S17 game as well. I use a balanced playing count, and add a balanced level-3 side-count of aces (the ace tagged as -3, to reflect that aces are far more valuable for betting purposes than ten-valued cards, and in S17 games, are around three times as valuable), but it isn't one I can share- I worked on getting it, along with the appropriate index numbers, with other players, and can't give the information out. T3 was the one who used to post the most about this game- I do miss reading his input.

    Katarina noted in posts she made on this site that she was hoping to write a second book. It is a shame she passed away so soon after her first book was published- I would have enjoyed reading the updates she would have made going forward. There is no other published material I know of for Spanish 21 and counting cards, unfortunately.

    With regard to odd EoR combinations, T3 mentioned to me that when there is an extreme surplus of aces, even if there aren't many ten-valued cards remaining, a lot of low valued cards (2-6, that are usually bad cards for betting purposes) can lead to a gain due to six and seven card 21 possibilities. He had an adjustment in the count he used for things like this, though I don't know if others did. I sure don't. A main count with a level-3 side count for betting is enough for me. Still, even if T3 did still post, the H17 redoubling game likely hasn't had too many people analyzing it- I know T3 (and everyone else I know who has advanced counts for SP21) all use the S17 game.

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