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Thread: The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

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    The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

    I just made the following post on another site and thought I share it here as well to get a few more perspectives.


    Wherever the truth lies there seems to be a deliberate effort in the AP community to suppress the story. Many current and old threads discuss just how low and underhanded the casino industry will go to reach their bottom line. Encourage drinking with free offerings, exploit addicts of all kinds, constant rule changes to increase house edges, and the barring of AP players who are smart. We have forums where established players help out beginners, and part-timers by giving back and we think we are superior human beings compared to the casino management teams that represent the slime of the earth. But apparently, there are those in the AP community who could care less whoever gets stepped on and ruined in the process of exploiting a play. So it may very well turn out that all these forums and helping others is all one big facade and in reality, most everyone is bottom feeders. If the story turns out to be true, "in my mind" it will be a real reflective mark on us all.

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    At least you put it in Disadvantage.

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    They’re slime buckets on both sides of the fence. Loads of them on the casino side of things, and certainly some on the AP side as well.

    How’s this for bad manners.
    I very recently scolded a critter on his ridiculous ruling, who claimed there was nothing he could do for me. After I dressed him down, he reluctantly ruled in my favour for this (one time only) occurrence. I would have dressed him down again 2 minutes later, had the same issue reoccurred.

    It was a totally self serving house ruling, at a min 50 table, at a store who like to portray themselves as high end, and who are, in reality - bush league.

  4. #4
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    I am aware that there are those in the AP community that have put a massive effort into making baseless accusations against many others in the AP community. Such people are extremely harmful to the community. Please let's keep this paranoid thinking off this forum. If someone has actual evidence, that's fine. But lashing out at folks and making vile accusations based on nothing but an overactive imagination is not acceptable.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Senior Member dharmaprija's Avatar
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    Greed and envy seem to be all too unfortunate accompaniments to the human animal. I've seen a few piranha type behaviors but all in all the community especially here on the forum has been exemplary.

  6. #6


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    I don't feel quite right playing Blackjack since the introduction of MD3. The pictures of MD3 could be found following the link:

    http://www.thetpro.com/baccarat/md3/

    If your long term end results are worse playing MD3 compared to hand-shuffled, please post here.

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    BJGenius007, all I know is I remember going back a few years and periodically giving you a hard time on the subject. With very little actual experience playing against ASM at that time to back up my words. Fast forward to today and my own sample size is too small compared to your study my results are not that much different vs hand shuffled cards but there is one huge difference I do not trust the ASM and I find myself playing less and less against them. I no longer take all your words on the subject lightly. I rather not talk about it here as most everyone does not think it is possible. The one body I trust the least now is the oversight Gaming Commissions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    I rather not talk about it here as most everyone does not think it is possible.
    That brings up a good question though. Why does most everyone think that with today's technology advancements, along with the human element that runs everything, is it not possible that ASM can be altered or actually are altered to program cards into different preset patterns? Surely it cannot be the concern about protection of the oversight Gaming Commissions, they more than likely would think that there is nothing wrong with that method anyway as long as a player was given a cut card to start the game, and they would think that was not much different than what we refer to as preferential shuffling. They would also try to lay the blame on the manufacturer of the product. A measily fine of $20 k or something, that will stop them, yah right. Does members think that AP's over a extended period of time, cannot spot unusual but definative patterns and irregularities? Don, and Norm have either of you played against those machines for any length of time yourselves over the last five or six years?
    Last edited by BoSox; 02-08-2019 at 05:27 PM.

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    It is very simple. Every conspiracy has the problem that all the conspirators must keep it quit. The larger the conspiracy the more people that need to keep quiet. All it takes is one guy spilling the beans. So far no beans have been spilled by the thousands or tens of thousands of people that would be involved in the conspiracy. So that translates to no chance that it is happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    It is very simple. Every conspiracy has the problem that all the conspirators must keep it quit. The larger the conspiracy the more people that need to keep quiet. All it takes is one guy spilling the beans. So far no beans have been spilled by the thousands or tens of thousands of people that would be involved in the conspiracy. So that translates to no chance that it is happening.
    Only one decent IT person can do it. Moreover, as long as the programming only defeats card counters, does not increase edge to the casino over gamblers, most state regulators don’t care.

    I know it’s dismissed by others but a year later, using the same identical tactics on 6 Deck games, I consistently lost at the one with the deepest penetration, 26 cards cut by notch, no heat. Some 50 sessions at the suspect casino where I lost most of the time versus as many sessions where penetration was less and I won.

    Even the DD game with ASM, my losses were much greater than at hand shuffled DD’s in Las Vegas.

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    Why does thousands or tens of thousands of people have to be involved?

  12. #12


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    Both sides make legitimate points.
    The shufling machines are card readers per their patents. They are run by software. If a card is missing the software knows and beeps. A reset button arranges the cards in prewash order. Those are facts.

    can the software be programmed to cheat? No way even if the casinos would take the risk of greed! Many players think of the online gambling where cheating is very easy to do. The real casinos have variable numbers of players. Not evry player knows basic strategy. Some players deviate from bs intentionally. The machine would need dozens of buttons to change the card order from those variables.

    Many bj players think they figured out what the machines do. they mix up the cards real good from the casinos perspective. Big cards are next to small cards. It makes busting more frequent including for the dealer. but you know the game-the players bust before the dealer. I think the electronic shuffle increases the bust of players by a few percentiles. No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.

    This is from experience. A dealer told me that they have players who ask for shuffling machines because the shoes are are not clumped. I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    This happened at the same table with the same dealer. The guy had a disturbing number of blackjacks. I "attacked" him with more insurances than I usually do. The dealer became suspicious but the local law doesnt allow banning gamblers (discrimination issues). in one round the other players at the table and I took insurance and WON! The pitboss decided to switch to manual the nest shoe. He said something like machine malfunction.

    So I never fight over this issue. Both sides are right and wrong and they'll never fight in court.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    You just contradicted yourself. In the first above quote you say:
    "
    The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping."

    In the second quote you are hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 because apparently, you think clumping is taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    That above quote would not be a defense for casinos, it is admitting guilt, as you are saying that the machines are not random "prevents clumping". If they are in fact truly random there would be plenty of shoes with clumping taking place.

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