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Thread: The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

  1. #14
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    The only concern that I would have would be at casinos that do not wash the cards when the decks are changed. The cards would be in new card order, which would be known, and the shuffling recipe could stack the deck into an order that would favor the casino. With 2D games the cards are changed out every two hours or so, so a nice windfall for the casino would occur enough times in a day to add to their bottom line. 6D games don't bring in new decks often enough to make a real difference.

  2. #15


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    You guys dont get how easy this is, it can be done with almost no one knowing except a key saleman and the lead engineer, they basically need merely create a rng distribution that destroys basic strategy player and card counters. And it need not be every deck sequence, just a bias controlling the overall distribution of millions of possile rng orders to slightly favor grouping faces cards, or aces distributed slightly away from face cards

    And if its not biased directly into preprogrammed millions of deck sequences, it could still be done jsut by moving 1-2 face cards closer to other cards or moving aces a little bit extra away from face cards, among many other things.

    Out of the millions of deck sequences, it merely has to slightly bias 5-10% of those sequences to avg slightly more face cards grouped slightly more than normal density and aces slightly more grouped than statistically expected and have those aces a few extra cards away from the face card clump and it will absolutely destroy any card counters. And the amount of this statistically deviation from expected could easily be programmed just like a slot machine to control the theoretical casino profit based upon the statistical distribution of the sequences in the rnd of the degree of the grouping manipulation that it is asked for.

    If any of this is being done in any amount, it does not matter where you cut, if you follow basic strategy, normal card counter strategy, you will get destroyed.

    People need to get off their math simulation complex and consider just because you cant simulate it and is not modelled your system it does not exist... The ASMs are poor shufflers, run a new deck sequence through it yourself and examine yourself, cards are moved around but the overall sequences is still intact...,

    once you detect decks with grouped faces cards, or grouped aces without face cards nearby, or hell even lack of 8 and 9 (important bust cards) density near face cards, you should combat this and deviate from your system slightly lower bet size corresponding to your count, and wait for more shuffles until the bad deck sequences gets broken up to something more favorable,

    If you think the ASMs cant do this you are being naive, it says right in there patents, they optically detect and recognize every card, flag if any card is missing, can sort decks into new card order, etc, etc. Who is to say they did not figure out they can just move one or two aces or face cards to poorer spot in every shuffle, you guys who are pros detect something is off and refuse to even consider this may be exactly what is happening.

    What i described could be implemented without anyone of the floor knowing and only head business man at these companies and a couple big chain casion executives, there is no need for hundreds of people to keep silence.

    My own notes in records over about 900 hours of play are showing evidence that places that keep those decks in play for day long shifts my results are worse, the longer decks are in play the worse the sequences get for basic strategy and card counting, when new decks come into play things tend to be better for the next couple hours.

    Is this all conspiracy MAYBE, but we should not be naive on the matter, and I am personally taking my own counter measures to combat the grouping when i detect it... if DD cards in hand, shuffle your cards when taking a bust card to spread apart your face cards... if excess grouping detected without aces or 89 density nearby, dont be an idiot the next shoe with those cards, and max bet into it just because your count says to, you will have less BJ than you think, dealer wont bust due to lack of 89 density, and when you finally do get your 20 you will just push.

    This kinda of thing is destroying a lot of newbie card counters and then they just accept it as variance! when it was bad deck sequences that destroyed them, not variance!

    this message will self destruct in 1 hour.

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    You guys dont get how easy this is, it can be done with almost no one knowing except a key saleman and the lead engineer, they basically need merely create a rng distribution that destroys basic strategy player and card counters. And it need not be every deck sequence, just a bias controlling the overall distribution of millions of possile rng orders to slightly favor grouping faces cards, or aces distributed slightly away from face cards

    And if its not biased directly into preprogrammed millions of deck sequences, it could still be done jsut by moving 1-2 face cards closer to other cards or moving aces a little bit extra away from face cards, among many other things.

    Out of the millions of deck sequences, it merely has to slightly bias 5-10% of those sequences to avg slightly more face cards grouped slightly more than normal density and aces slightly more grouped than statistically expected and have those aces a few extra cards away from the face card clump and it will absolutely destroy any card counters. And the amount of this statistically deviation from expected could easily be programmed just like a slot machine to control the theoretical casino profit based upon the statistical distribution of the sequences in the rnd of the degree of the grouping manipulation that it is asked for.

    If any of this is being done in any amount, it does not matter where you cut, if you follow basic strategy, normal card counter strategy, you will get destroyed.

    People need to get off their math simulation complex and consider just because you cant simulate it and is not modelled your system it does not exist... The ASMs are poor shufflers, run a new deck sequence through it yourself and examine yourself, cards are moved around but the overall sequences is still intact...,

    once you detect decks with grouped faces cards, or grouped aces without face cards nearby, or hell even lack of 8 and 9 (important bust cards) density near face cards, you should combat this and deviate from your system slightly lower bet size corresponding to your count, and wait for more shuffles until the bad deck sequences gets broken up to something more favorable,

    If you think the ASMs cant do this you are being naive, it says right in there patents, they optically detect and recognize every card, flag if any card is missing, can sort decks into new card order, etc, etc. Who is to say they did not figure out they can just move one or two aces or face cards to poorer spot in every shuffle, you guys who are pros detect something is off and refuse to even consider this may be exactly what is happening.

    What i described could be implemented without anyone of the floor knowing and only head business man at these companies and a couple big chain casion executives, there is no need for hundreds of people to keep silence.

    My own notes in records over about 900 hours of play are showing evidence that places that keep those decks in play for day long shifts my results are worse, the longer decks are in play the worse the sequences get for basic strategy and card counting, when new decks come into play things tend to be better for the next couple hours.

    Is this all conspiracy MAYBE, but we should not be naive on the matter, and I am personally taking my own counter measures to combat the grouping when i detect it... if DD cards in hand, shuffle your cards when taking a bust card to spread apart your face cards... if excess grouping detected without aces or 89 density nearby, dont be an idiot the next shoe with those cards, and max bet into it just because your count says to, you will have less BJ than you think, dealer wont bust due to lack of 89 density, and when you finally do get your 20 you will just push.

    This kinda of thing is destroying a lot of newbie card counters and then they just accept it as variance! when it was bad deck sequences that destroyed them, not variance!

    this message will self destruct in 1 hour.
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    In over 25 years, I've never met a perfect BS player. This of course excludes any AP type player and talking strictly about typical blackjack players.

  4. #17
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Firstly, of course it could be simulated.
    Secondly, you don't know how these machines work. Cards are not selected by an rng.
    Thirdly, thousands of people would need to know this, and the penalties would be severe.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #18
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    If you ever believe a casino is cheating, then don't play. It is that simple. The sims should mimic your results if you are doing everything as the sim does and the conditions are the conditions simmed. If the casino is cheating then the sim results are not sims for that game. Don't play. I am amazed that people continue to play when they believe they are being cheated. I am even more amazed by people that want to play more where they struggle to win. It defies common sense.

  6. #19


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    There was an instance at Foxwoods in CT in which an ASM was serviced and a dip-switch inside was set improperly causing the machine to organize the shoe back into perfect brand-new deck order. They were fined heavily for it.

    The machine's manufacturer boasts that each card is read to ensure it hasn't been marked, tampered with or switched, and counts each card to ensure the shoe is complete.

    Given that info, it's obvious that the machine could be programed to do anything - make the shoe low-heavy at the beginning and bury the high cards at the end where they're likely to be cut off - or could be programed to keep the deck balanced throughout, so that the running count is nearly always zero and the inherent house advantage prevails. That said, if a gaming commission or other other oversight authority were to forensically inspect the devices and discover that was occurring, the casino would never deal another hand ever again.

  7. #20
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    No, that is far from obvious. With this kind of electro-mechanical device, the fact that it has a switch that does one thing does not mean that it can be easily reprogrammed to do another thing.
    Last edited by Norm; 03-12-2019 at 11:26 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMass View Post
    Given that info, it's obvious that the machine could be programed to do anything
    That is possible, almost anything is possible. However, we here on this site deal in probabilities not possibilities, and the probabilities are near zero that a casino would hire someone to modify one of these machines to cheat. As you said, the mod would be discovered with dire consequences for the casino that did such a thing. The fact is that casinos are literally printing money and it would be highly unlikely that they would kill the goose that is laying golden eggs to make a relatively small amount by modifying a shuffling machine to cheat players.

  9. #22


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    Both sides make legitimate points.
    The shufling machines are card readers per their patents. They are run by software. If a card is missing the software knows and beeps. A reset button arranges the cards in prewash order. Those are facts.

    can the software be programmed to cheat? No way even if the casinos would take the risk of greed! Many players think of the online gambling where cheating is very easy to do. The real casinos have variable numbers of players. Not evry player knows basic strategy. Some players deviate from bs intentionally. The machine would need dozens of buttons to change the card order from those variables.

    Many bj players think they figured out what the machines do. they mix up the cards real good from the casinos perspective. Big cards are next to small cards. It makes busting more frequent including for the dealer. but you know the game-the players bust before the dealer. I think the electronic shuffle increases the bust of players by a few percentiles. No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.

    This is from experience. A dealer told me that they have players who ask for shuffling machines because the shoes are are not clumped. I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    This happened at the same table with the same dealer. The guy had a disturbing number of blackjacks. I "attacked" him with more insurances than I usually do. The dealer became suspicious but the local law doesnt allow banning gamblers (discrimination issues). in one round the other players at the table and I took insurance and WON! The pitboss decided to switch to manual the nest shoe. He said something like machine malfunction.

    So I never fight over this issue. Both sides are right and wrong and they'll never fight in court.

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    You just contradicted yourself. In the first above quote you say:
    "
    The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping."

    In the second quote you are hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 because apparently, you think clumping is taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    That above quote would not be a defense for casinos, it is admitting guilt, as you are saying that the machines are not random "prevents clumping". If they are in fact truly random there would be plenty of shoes with clumping taking place.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You just contradicted yourself. In the first above quote you say:
    "
    The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping."

    In the second quote you are hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 because apparently, you think clumping is taking place.



    That above quote would not be a defense for casinos, it is admitting guilt, as you are saying that the machines are not random "prevents clumping". If they are in fact truly random there would be plenty of shoes with clumping taking place.
    It isnt a contradiction when I say Both sides are right and wrong. I mean for the arguments sake The entire discussion here is an argument with 2 strong positions.

    Hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 was not because i thought clumping was taking place. contrary I did it because I thought my small+10 will be followed by another small and thats what bothered the dealer.

    "preventing clumping" is not cheating and the manufacturer will argue successfully that it is the best shuffling method. What makes you think your random definition is the best and the only one accepted legallY?

    This type of discussion is gonna last a long time with strong arguments on both sides. Itll never see a court because no proof of cheating can be found. On the other hand you maybe right. the shuflers affect bs players because of increased busting (by a few percentages not a whole lot). counting will be also much harder as most counts are very close to neutral.

    No doubt the electronic shuffling machines will be around for a long time. the only replacements I see will be electronic dealers like in roulette.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    "preventing clumping" is not cheating and the manufacturer will argue successfully that it is the best shuffling method. What makes you think your random definition is the best and the only one accepted legallY?
    Preventing clumping would no longer be considered random period.

  13. #26


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    It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.

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