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Thread: The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMass View Post
    Given that info, it's obvious that the machine could be programed to do anything
    That is possible, almost anything is possible. However, we here on this site deal in probabilities not possibilities, and the probabilities are near zero that a casino would hire someone to modify one of these machines to cheat. As you said, the mod would be discovered with dire consequences for the casino that did such a thing. The fact is that casinos are literally printing money and it would be highly unlikely that they would kill the goose that is laying golden eggs to make a relatively small amount by modifying a shuffling machine to cheat players.

  2. #22


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    Both sides make legitimate points.
    The shufling machines are card readers per their patents. They are run by software. If a card is missing the software knows and beeps. A reset button arranges the cards in prewash order. Those are facts.

    can the software be programmed to cheat? No way even if the casinos would take the risk of greed! Many players think of the online gambling where cheating is very easy to do. The real casinos have variable numbers of players. Not evry player knows basic strategy. Some players deviate from bs intentionally. The machine would need dozens of buttons to change the card order from those variables.

    Many bj players think they figured out what the machines do. they mix up the cards real good from the casinos perspective. Big cards are next to small cards. It makes busting more frequent including for the dealer. but you know the game-the players bust before the dealer. I think the electronic shuffle increases the bust of players by a few percentiles. No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.

    This is from experience. A dealer told me that they have players who ask for shuffling machines because the shoes are are not clumped. I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    This happened at the same table with the same dealer. The guy had a disturbing number of blackjacks. I "attacked" him with more insurances than I usually do. The dealer became suspicious but the local law doesnt allow banning gamblers (discrimination issues). in one round the other players at the table and I took insurance and WON! The pitboss decided to switch to manual the nest shoe. He said something like machine malfunction.

    So I never fight over this issue. Both sides are right and wrong and they'll never fight in court.

  3. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    No law could accuse the casinos of cheating. The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    I hit a few stiffs against 5/6 and the same dealer didnt like it! He said I was one of those who figured how to beat the machines? Maybe coincidence but I won most of those bonehead plays!
    You just contradicted yourself. In the first above quote you say:
    "
    The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping."

    In the second quote you are hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 because apparently, you think clumping is taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    The casinos would have the best defence there is. The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping.
    That above quote would not be a defense for casinos, it is admitting guilt, as you are saying that the machines are not random "prevents clumping". If they are in fact truly random there would be plenty of shoes with clumping taking place.

  4. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You just contradicted yourself. In the first above quote you say:
    "
    The machines offer the most random shuffle possible as it prevents clumping."

    In the second quote you are hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 because apparently, you think clumping is taking place.



    That above quote would not be a defense for casinos, it is admitting guilt, as you are saying that the machines are not random "prevents clumping". If they are in fact truly random there would be plenty of shoes with clumping taking place.
    It isnt a contradiction when I say Both sides are right and wrong. I mean for the arguments sake The entire discussion here is an argument with 2 strong positions.

    Hitting stiff hands vs 5/6 was not because i thought clumping was taking place. contrary I did it because I thought my small+10 will be followed by another small and thats what bothered the dealer.

    "preventing clumping" is not cheating and the manufacturer will argue successfully that it is the best shuffling method. What makes you think your random definition is the best and the only one accepted legallY?

    This type of discussion is gonna last a long time with strong arguments on both sides. Itll never see a court because no proof of cheating can be found. On the other hand you maybe right. the shuflers affect bs players because of increased busting (by a few percentages not a whole lot). counting will be also much harder as most counts are very close to neutral.

    No doubt the electronic shuffling machines will be around for a long time. the only replacements I see will be electronic dealers like in roulette.

  5. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    "preventing clumping" is not cheating and the manufacturer will argue successfully that it is the best shuffling method. What makes you think your random definition is the best and the only one accepted legallY?
    Preventing clumping would no longer be considered random period.

  6. #26


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    It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.

  7. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.
    What you are stating gives the suggestion of improprieties by setting cards into preset patterns. When something is truly random all kinds of different sequences can and do happen.

  8. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.
    Now we are on to something. Is it true that
    there is no legal measure of randomness in all jurisdictions throughout the country pertaining to the mixing, or shuffling of cards involved in table games? I believe there must be some standards set by gaming laws. If not how could that be possible? Is there grounds for a legal challenge by hundreds of players that deserve consistent standards on procedures throughout the country in all games.
    Last edited by BoSox; 03-25-2019 at 05:09 PM.

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