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Thread: The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

  1. #11
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    All the floormen, pit bosses, dealers, techs that repair them, people that helped develop them for the patent holder, for a decade of employment at hundreds of casinos that have used ASMs. All it would take is one disgruntled person to spill the beans.
    Last edited by Three; 02-08-2019 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #12


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    Three, I politely disagree that all of those employees need to know about all of the ins and outs of the machines.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Three, I politely disagree that all of those employees need to know about all of the ins and outs of the machines.
    With hundreds of casinos using them just a few at each casino make the conspiracy over a thousand. Someone would talk.

  4. #14
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    The only concern that I would have would be at casinos that do not wash the cards when the decks are changed. The cards would be in new card order, which would be known, and the shuffling recipe could stack the deck into an order that would favor the casino. With 2D games the cards are changed out every two hours or so, so a nice windfall for the casino would occur enough times in a day to add to their bottom line. 6D games don't bring in new decks often enough to make a real difference.

  5. #15


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    You guys dont get how easy this is, it can be done with almost no one knowing except a key saleman and the lead engineer, they basically need merely create a rng distribution that destroys basic strategy player and card counters. And it need not be every deck sequence, just a bias controlling the overall distribution of millions of possile rng orders to slightly favor grouping faces cards, or aces distributed slightly away from face cards

    And if its not biased directly into preprogrammed millions of deck sequences, it could still be done jsut by moving 1-2 face cards closer to other cards or moving aces a little bit extra away from face cards, among many other things.

    Out of the millions of deck sequences, it merely has to slightly bias 5-10% of those sequences to avg slightly more face cards grouped slightly more than normal density and aces slightly more grouped than statistically expected and have those aces a few extra cards away from the face card clump and it will absolutely destroy any card counters. And the amount of this statistically deviation from expected could easily be programmed just like a slot machine to control the theoretical casino profit based upon the statistical distribution of the sequences in the rnd of the degree of the grouping manipulation that it is asked for.

    If any of this is being done in any amount, it does not matter where you cut, if you follow basic strategy, normal card counter strategy, you will get destroyed.

    People need to get off their math simulation complex and consider just because you cant simulate it and is not modelled your system it does not exist... The ASMs are poor shufflers, run a new deck sequence through it yourself and examine yourself, cards are moved around but the overall sequences is still intact...,

    once you detect decks with grouped faces cards, or grouped aces without face cards nearby, or hell even lack of 8 and 9 (important bust cards) density near face cards, you should combat this and deviate from your system slightly lower bet size corresponding to your count, and wait for more shuffles until the bad deck sequences gets broken up to something more favorable,

    If you think the ASMs cant do this you are being naive, it says right in there patents, they optically detect and recognize every card, flag if any card is missing, can sort decks into new card order, etc, etc. Who is to say they did not figure out they can just move one or two aces or face cards to poorer spot in every shuffle, you guys who are pros detect something is off and refuse to even consider this may be exactly what is happening.

    What i described could be implemented without anyone of the floor knowing and only head business man at these companies and a couple big chain casion executives, there is no need for hundreds of people to keep silence.

    My own notes in records over about 900 hours of play are showing evidence that places that keep those decks in play for day long shifts my results are worse, the longer decks are in play the worse the sequences get for basic strategy and card counting, when new decks come into play things tend to be better for the next couple hours.

    Is this all conspiracy MAYBE, but we should not be naive on the matter, and I am personally taking my own counter measures to combat the grouping when i detect it... if DD cards in hand, shuffle your cards when taking a bust card to spread apart your face cards... if excess grouping detected without aces or 89 density nearby, dont be an idiot the next shoe with those cards, and max bet into it just because your count says to, you will have less BJ than you think, dealer wont bust due to lack of 89 density, and when you finally do get your 20 you will just push.

    This kinda of thing is destroying a lot of newbie card counters and then they just accept it as variance! when it was bad deck sequences that destroyed them, not variance!

    this message will self destruct in 1 hour.

  6. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    You guys dont get how easy this is, it can be done with almost no one knowing except a key saleman and the lead engineer, they basically need merely create a rng distribution that destroys basic strategy player and card counters. And it need not be every deck sequence, just a bias controlling the overall distribution of millions of possile rng orders to slightly favor grouping faces cards, or aces distributed slightly away from face cards

    And if its not biased directly into preprogrammed millions of deck sequences, it could still be done jsut by moving 1-2 face cards closer to other cards or moving aces a little bit extra away from face cards, among many other things.

    Out of the millions of deck sequences, it merely has to slightly bias 5-10% of those sequences to avg slightly more face cards grouped slightly more than normal density and aces slightly more grouped than statistically expected and have those aces a few extra cards away from the face card clump and it will absolutely destroy any card counters. And the amount of this statistically deviation from expected could easily be programmed just like a slot machine to control the theoretical casino profit based upon the statistical distribution of the sequences in the rnd of the degree of the grouping manipulation that it is asked for.

    If any of this is being done in any amount, it does not matter where you cut, if you follow basic strategy, normal card counter strategy, you will get destroyed.

    People need to get off their math simulation complex and consider just because you cant simulate it and is not modelled your system it does not exist... The ASMs are poor shufflers, run a new deck sequence through it yourself and examine yourself, cards are moved around but the overall sequences is still intact...,

    once you detect decks with grouped faces cards, or grouped aces without face cards nearby, or hell even lack of 8 and 9 (important bust cards) density near face cards, you should combat this and deviate from your system slightly lower bet size corresponding to your count, and wait for more shuffles until the bad deck sequences gets broken up to something more favorable,

    If you think the ASMs cant do this you are being naive, it says right in there patents, they optically detect and recognize every card, flag if any card is missing, can sort decks into new card order, etc, etc. Who is to say they did not figure out they can just move one or two aces or face cards to poorer spot in every shuffle, you guys who are pros detect something is off and refuse to even consider this may be exactly what is happening.

    What i described could be implemented without anyone of the floor knowing and only head business man at these companies and a couple big chain casion executives, there is no need for hundreds of people to keep silence.

    My own notes in records over about 900 hours of play are showing evidence that places that keep those decks in play for day long shifts my results are worse, the longer decks are in play the worse the sequences get for basic strategy and card counting, when new decks come into play things tend to be better for the next couple hours.

    Is this all conspiracy MAYBE, but we should not be naive on the matter, and I am personally taking my own counter measures to combat the grouping when i detect it... if DD cards in hand, shuffle your cards when taking a bust card to spread apart your face cards... if excess grouping detected without aces or 89 density nearby, dont be an idiot the next shoe with those cards, and max bet into it just because your count says to, you will have less BJ than you think, dealer wont bust due to lack of 89 density, and when you finally do get your 20 you will just push.

    This kinda of thing is destroying a lot of newbie card counters and then they just accept it as variance! when it was bad deck sequences that destroyed them, not variance!

    this message will self destruct in 1 hour.
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    In over 25 years, I've never met a perfect BS player. This of course excludes any AP type player and talking strictly about typical blackjack players.

  7. #17
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Firstly, of course it could be simulated.
    Secondly, you don't know how these machines work. Cards are not selected by an rng.
    Thirdly, thousands of people would need to know this, and the penalties would be severe.
    "It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus

  8. #18
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    If you ever believe a casino is cheating, then don't play. It is that simple. The sims should mimic your results if you are doing everything as the sim does and the conditions are the conditions simmed. If the casino is cheating then the sim results are not sims for that game. Don't play. I am amazed that people continue to play when they believe they are being cheated. I am even more amazed by people that want to play more where they struggle to win. It defies common sense.

  9. #19


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    There was an instance at Foxwoods in CT in which an ASM was serviced and a dip-switch inside was set improperly causing the machine to organize the shoe back into perfect brand-new deck order. They were fined heavily for it.

    The machine's manufacturer boasts that each card is read to ensure it hasn't been marked, tampered with or switched, and counts each card to ensure the shoe is complete.

    Given that info, it's obvious that the machine could be programed to do anything - make the shoe low-heavy at the beginning and bury the high cards at the end where they're likely to be cut off - or could be programed to keep the deck balanced throughout, so that the running count is nearly always zero and the inherent house advantage prevails. That said, if a gaming commission or other other oversight authority were to forensically inspect the devices and discover that was occurring, the casino would never deal another hand ever again.

  10. #20
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    No, that is far from obvious. With this kind of electro-mechanical device, the fact that it has a switch that does one thing does not mean that it can be easily reprogrammed to do another thing.
    Last edited by Norm; 03-12-2019 at 11:26 AM.
    "It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows." -Epictetus

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