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Thread: The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.
    What you are stating gives the suggestion of improprieties by setting cards into preset patterns. When something is truly random all kinds of different sequences can and do happen.

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by conte543 View Post
    And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.
    Now we are on to something. Is it true that
    there is no legal measure of randomness in all jurisdictions throughout the country pertaining to the mixing, or shuffling of cards involved in table games? I believe there must be some standards set by gaming laws. If not how could that be possible? Is there grounds for a legal challenge by hundreds of players that deserve consistent standards on procedures throughout the country in all games.
    Last edited by BoSox; 03-25-2019 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    You guys dont get how easy this is, it can be done with almost no one knowing except a key saleman and the lead engineer, they basically need merely create a rng distribution that destroys basic strategy player and card counters. And it need not be every deck sequence, just a bias controlling the overall distribution of millions of possile rng orders to slightly favor grouping faces cards, or aces distributed slightly away from face cards

    And if its not biased directly into preprogrammed millions of deck sequences, it could still be done jsut by moving 1-2 face cards closer to other cards or moving aces a little bit extra away from face cards, among many other things.

    Out of the millions of deck sequences, it merely has to slightly bias 5-10% of those sequences to avg slightly more face cards grouped slightly more than normal density and aces slightly more grouped than statistically expected and have those aces a few extra cards away from the face card clump and it will absolutely destroy any card counters. And the amount of this statistically deviation from expected could easily be programmed just like a slot machine to control the theoretical casino profit based upon the statistical distribution of the sequences in the rnd of the degree of the grouping manipulation that it is asked for.

    If any of this is being done in any amount, it does not matter where you cut, if you follow basic strategy, normal card counter strategy, you will get destroyed.

    People need to get off their math simulation complex and consider just because you cant simulate it and is not modelled your system it does not exist... The ASMs are poor shufflers, run a new deck sequence through it yourself and examine yourself, cards are moved around but the overall sequences is still intact...,

    once you detect decks with grouped faces cards, or grouped aces without face cards nearby, or hell even lack of 8 and 9 (important bust cards) density near face cards, you should combat this and deviate from your system slightly lower bet size corresponding to your count, and wait for more shuffles until the bad deck sequences gets broken up to something more favorable,

    If you think the ASMs cant do this you are being naive, it says right in there patents, they optically detect and recognize every card, flag if any card is missing, can sort decks into new card order, etc, etc. Who is to say they did not figure out they can just move one or two aces or face cards to poorer spot in every shuffle, you guys who are pros detect something is off and refuse to even consider this may be exactly what is happening.

    What i described could be implemented without anyone of the floor knowing and only head business man at these companies and a couple big chain casion executives, there is no need for hundreds of people to keep silence.

    My own notes in records over about 900 hours of play are showing evidence that places that keep those decks in play for day long shifts my results are worse, the longer decks are in play the worse the sequences get for basic strategy and card counting, when new decks come into play things tend to be better for the next couple hours.

    Is this all conspiracy MAYBE, but we should not be naive on the matter, and I am personally taking my own counter measures to combat the grouping when i detect it... if DD cards in hand, shuffle your cards when taking a bust card to spread apart your face cards... if excess grouping detected without aces or 89 density nearby, dont be an idiot the next shoe with those cards, and max bet into it just because your count says to, you will have less BJ than you think, dealer wont bust due to lack of 89 density, and when you finally do get your 20 you will just push.

    This kinda of thing is destroying a lot of newbie card counters and then they just accept it as variance! when it was bad deck sequences that destroyed them, not variance!

    this message will self destruct in 1 hour.
    just curious if anyone has gained any wisdom for my post since, or is this conversation just split between two extremes of voodoo believers and math guys. I sincerely believe my friends you could lower your variance and increase your overall ev rate by understanding some aspects from my post. If you can detect bad deck compensations, especially ones in high TC when max bets are out, understand that can persist past a shuffle, and play a lil bit more careful until the deck sequence is better. I will publish something someday that will be very eye opening to both sides, that will prove this is not voodoo, but I am not ready to do that yet, and I don't want handshuffled games disappearing anytime soon. -hypercube21

  4. #30
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    is this conversation just split between two extremes of voodoo believers and math guys.
    I worry about anyone that believes math is an "extreme".
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    I worry about anyone that believes math is an "extreme".
    Maybe I can rough up some feathers or get banned. You can either choose to take my post as an attack or see it for its actually purpose, to encourage others to think more deeply about the game.

    The math is not extreme, it can only do what is programmed, which to date has been a very basic approach to the game. The people who believe their present assumptions are the only way and everything else is voodoo are what is extreme not the math itself. It is known proven fact that card sequences stay intact after casino shuffles and bad deck compositions (with positive counts) will destroy card counters. Things math sims completely ignore.

    I say by understanding, and actively manipulating those things we can improve our results, Yes I could program this knowledge into sim rules, so my "attack" is not on math, it's on those so fixed in their beliefs they are stuck with lame 1-2% edges and huge variance. They just accept the fact that their math tells them to bet into horribly negative ev deck compositions, and then when they lose their money they call it variance. But people who play 1000+ hours a year know there is more going on, that we are finding statistical outliers consistently more often than we should. That voodoo topics like trends, flow, clumping, have some measurable truth to them even though most don't yet understand why.

    ASM can easily cheat, move an extra face near each other, move one ace near some small cards, move one ace next to another ace, done and undetectable. Or even create a deck or subset sequence that no matter where you cut, you will lose every hand and this only has to be done some small percentage of the time. Casino also wash their cards in a way to cause this, not all, but some joints know how. I've also personally caught 3 dealers (one I worked with casino showed video proof and he lost his career, the other two are still dealing in Tunica) in the last 4 years. Who knows how many others I did not catch. That is out of a pool of 400 I have played with, I would say up to 1% of dealers out there are dealing seconds, so let's stop telling newbies this does not happen. Anyone stubbornly blindly betting to their math, would lose everything when they eventually run into a game like this, but the community claims it doesn't happen.

    Well open minds can know the WHY, because you will come to understand card sequences and shuffling and the effects of aces being near each other within groups of small cards, or faces being grouped. And then you will learn how many spots to play to cause those cards to recombine or separate from each other the next shoe, to actively create more favorable deck sequences. You will stop ignoring 8,9, which are important bust cards, preventing just pushing with the dealer in high counts, and allowing double downs, which is where the far majority of our advantage in high counts comes from, more double the advantage from than blackjacks! But no, the MATH says they are neutral cards LOL!.

    You can choose to stop making excuses and actively control these things instead to your advantage. Or, you can choose to stay blind to it, tell yourself, "sorry bad luck, we are playing the long run, bet to the count, trust the math, its normal statistical outcomes, asm cant cheat, dealers don't cheat" always some excuse, stick head in sand, everything else is voodoo. -hypercube21

  6. #32
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    Things math sims completely ignore.
    Correctly run sims do not ignore anything of the sort. And, blackjack math certainly does NOT ignore 8s and 9s.
    Last edited by Norm; 12-23-2019 at 07:32 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    It is very simple. Every conspiracy has the problem that all the conspirators must keep it quit. The larger the conspiracy the more people that need to keep quiet. All it takes is one guy spilling the beans. So far no beans have been spilled by the thousands or tens of thousands of people that would be involved in the conspiracy. So that translates to no chance that it is happening.
    Only one decent IT person can do it. Moreover, as long as the programming only defeats card counters, does not increase edge to the casino over gamblers, most state regulators don’t care.

    I know it’s dismissed by others but a year later, using the same identical tactics on 6 Deck games, I consistently lost at the one with the deepest penetration, 26 cards cut by notch, no heat. Some 50 sessions at the suspect casino where I lost most of the time versus as many sessions where penetration was less and I won.

    Even the DD game with ASM, my losses were much greater than at hand shuffled DD’s in Las Vegas.

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