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Thread: Back offs and countermeasures, need help handling them..

  1. #27
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    Cool it and stay away from the local stores for a while. They have not officially backed you off, but they know that you are counting and they are countermeasuring you. Give it a year or two, or even longer. Meanwhile, travelling is your best option. Play unrated and play more shoe games.

    When playing handheld games play very short sessions. Play tables with more than 2 other players if the pen is good. Pay attention to the pit and leave if it appears that you are getting heat. Try to blend in and don't do anything that would draw attention to yourself. When you win take the chips out of the betting circle immediately and only make bets from your chip stack. Use software to determine low cost cover plays. Good luck!

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by mofungoo View Post
    Cool it and stay away from the local stores for a while. They have not officially backed you off, but they know that you are counting and they are countermeasuring you. Give it a year or two, or even longer. Meanwhile, travelling is your best option. Play unrated and play more shoe games.

    When playing handheld games play very short sessions. Play tables with more than 2 other players if the pen is good. Pay attention to the pit and leave if it appears that you are getting heat. Try to blend in and don't do anything that would draw attention to yourself. When you win take the chips out of the betting circle immediately and only make bets from your chip stack. Use software to determine low cost cover plays. Good luck!
    Well said. The problem for most of us who are not professional is that plans are sometimes dumped. Like the last time when I was countermeasured. I drive a bit, get to the casino all optimistic, put a $25 minimum bet on the DD table, get a BJ. After that, I dont win a hand through the shoe. I had bought in for $200, buy in for another $300 and then another $200 by the end of that shoe. Unfortunately, at the last buy in, there is still a round or two to go, count is TC 3-4, I get 8 Green chips, place 6 of them while the pit guy has walked over to enter my buy-in and is watching. I lose that hand too and the last hand, with 2 Greens is a tie. So, in the hole for $700 in about 10 minutes and I am pissed off. Its just one shoe but the pit guy has walked back and is on the phone. A few minutes later, the counter measure takes place.

    The professional would probably have taken the loss, walked away when he noticed the pit guy was on the phone. I did not, they watched me for about a deck and then I was done. The pit guy walks over, says only two rounds will be dealt per shoe. I said, I have to run anyway so I basically left.

    Interestingly, I was comped at the place so next morning, around 6:00 a.m., its still dark outside so I put my bag in my car, walk back in and sit down to play, The same $25 min. table is now a $15 min. table. I sat and played about 50 minutes without problem, won $525 and then left. I just played $15-$75 spread but received one double down with $75 out and another split with $50 out and won them both.

    I dont know how it applies. Perhaps I can still play on other shifts.

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    I never think I am fooling anyone. I allow them the leeway to let me play without getting in trouble with their superiors. If I am wrong about that I am very good at fooling them. They seem to make it clear they know I am counting. At least that is how I read it. I just use a modest spread and less threatening top bet. I make really good EV without needing to be more aggressive. I do what I can to keep swings down which makes me look more nonthreatening. But I figure they know what I am doing but don't care as long as they won't get in trouble for not caring. Of course this varies by casino. I don't think they believe I am bad at it. I think they see that I make sure they can look the other way without getting in trouble by keeping my spread down to 10:1 for shoe games for all appearances. And keeping my top bet well below half the table max. And I make sure my bets don't move with the count and I make lots of plays that normal counts don't even have indices for. When I have stayed too long they give not so subtle hints that it is time to go. But they don't act. After enough clues you know when to leave and they don't have to give them anymore. They have trained me to play within what they are comfortable with.

    I figure I add to the drop and they feel I give them a good shot at my money and never get greedy enough for them to worry about me ruining their shift, day, week, or month. I might win an outlier amount in one shoe but then I leave. I don't try for another dip into their trough before leaving. Each casino is different but I have always been able to figure out how to be tolerated without forcing them to act against me. I think that most APs force the suits' hands by needing to be too aggressive by focusing entirely on generating EV. In a comparison for the sake of measuring the gain it is all made to fall in EV while keeping everything else constant so it can be measured. But you don't have to take the gain as increased EV. You can use it to make casinos more comfortable with your play while still getting the EV of the weaker approach. I always say that I don't use complexity to get more EV. I spend the EV at being able to make money more easily in casinos. All these critical people think the value of complexity is added EV. They are shortsighted and make poor judgement calls. At least if they care about longevity. If they don't then they simply have a different outlook and approach with different goals. We place value on different things. That is just reality.
    The problem with all of this is that you are talking about what you are doing entirely from a different perspective, including using a system that no one else uses. When you say things like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    And I make sure my bets don't move with the count and I make lots of plays that normal counts don't even have indices for.
    Without trying to be rude when you talk about how you handle casino scrutiny and heat etc there is not too much in common with your style of play and almost all the other posters combined. When you give examples from your own experiences it actually is rather meaningless for others who do things much differently than you.

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Three
    And I make sure my bets don't move with the count and I make lots of plays that normal counts don't even have indices for.

    Bosox response to above quote:
    Without trying to be rude when you talk about how you handle casino scrutiny and heat etc there is not too much in common with your style of play and almost all the other posters combined. When you give examples from your own experiences it actually is rather meaningless for others who do things much differently than you.
    The quote you quoted is useful for every system. You can generate a lot of EV without moving your bet the way they expect a counter would. It won't be optimal. You might lose a little EV and increase variance but that is the cost of cover. Moving your bet exactly with the count is a recipe for a quick BO. Very simple, if you don't want a quick back off don't do that. Then you assess how much EV you want to give up (it doesn't have to be any) and how much additional variance you will accept to not fit the counter profile. Using a strong count helps you access things more accurately but is not necessary to performing this type of cover. The effectiveness of the cover is using it when it is most effective. Trying to choose when to use it by opportunity cost is counterproductive to achieving the goals of what you are doing.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Moving your bet exactly with the count is a recipe for a quick BO. Very simple, if you don't want a quick back off don't do that.
    Three, you are combining a one size fits all mentality here and it is far from being accurate. Where you play, level of play, how often you play in the said casino and how long is your session in the casino are all factors in this. What are the spreads used, and how much wonging is used affects spread needed not to mention the quality of game by pen, rules, available tables and the size of the action around you. One of the most important aspects in all of this is how a player projects "act" themselves in a casino and no two players are exactly the same. Does the player accept small wins or look for something memorable. Is the player receiving large comps will also play a part in this. When you mention something like the above quote like it stands for itself is in my mind a huge disservice to the community.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-17-2018 at 02:04 PM.

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Three, you are combining a one size fits all mentality here and it is far from being accurate. Where you play, level of play, how often you play in the said casino and how long is your session in the casino are all factors in this. What are the spreads used, and how much wonging is used affects spread needed not to mention the quality of game by pen, rules, available tables and the size of the action around you. One of the most important aspects in all of this is how a player projects "act" themselves in a casino and no two players are exactly the same. Does the player accept a small wins or look for something memorable. Is the player receiving large comps will also play a part in this. When you mention something like the above quote like it stands for itself is in my mind a huge disservice to the community.
    I have mentioned all that previously in the thread. I am trying not to repeat myself or make posts longer than they need be. Some things require some explaining and can't adequately be dealt with in a short post. I assume the readers don't want to read another long post as the lead in to this short version. If I am wrong I can be more thorough in every post rather than just some posts.

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Some things require some explaining and can't adequately be dealt with in a short post. I assume the readers don't want to read another long post as the lead in to this short version.
    I understand completely but unfortunately, sometimes you need to be complete out of necessity. We have people here like Dbs 6582 need I say more. He is still looking for your hidden nuggets from three months ago.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-17-2018 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #34


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    In another recent thread in a reply to another poster post-ZeeBabar wrote:

    "
    I wonder where your conscience is when you get on a forum simply to attack or ridicule a poster, where you neither offer encouragement nor advice. When a person matures sufficiently, he stops conning himself."

    What the hell is wrong with you 21forme?

    ra ra shish kum bah
    ZeeBabar can do it
    ZeeBabar can
    If he can't do it nobody can

  9. #35


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    Bosox - I don't understand what you're trying to say.

  10. #36


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    You could at least offered him some encouragement.

  11. #37


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    What kind of encouragement?

    He's incapable of learning and posts just to get attention. He's as much an attention whore as he is a gambling addict.

  12. #38


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    I understand completely but unfortunately, sometimes you need to be complete out of necessity. We have people here like Dbs 6582 need I say more. He is still looking for your hidden nuggets from three months ago.
    Bosox, this is one of your better posts. Made me laugh. You are correct. I spend quite a bit of time looking for all the hidden nuggets in Three’s posts. Sometimes I think I find them, but most of the time I expect they stay hidden. I need to take a course in how to find hidden nuggets.

  13. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    What kind of encouragement?

    He's incapable of learning and posts just to get attention. He's as much an attention whore as he is a gambling addict.
    See this all worked out as you did help him after all. Not by encouragement but by advice. He needs to disguise himself to be able to play. Thanks to you now he has the answer. He already has the clothes, wig, and make up he can go back and play as 6 foot 4-inch retired whore. Sorry Zee as you do not have a lot of other options for playing locally.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-18-2018 at 04:33 AM.

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