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Thread: Back offs and countermeasures, need help handling them..

  1. #1


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    Back offs and countermeasures, need help handling them..

    After 4 years, it's finally become difficult or impossible to play locally. The other day, in HL room, down $400 at DD game in about 25 minutes, New dealer comes in and immediately cuts of 2/3 of DD. I pretend not to notice, at end of shoe, I move to the other DD table with 2 others. Immediately, pit lady whispers something and the deck is again cut off 2/3. I leave the HL room, wander around casino a few minutes, sit down at a $10 table. Before the dealer gives me chips, phone rings in pit, pit guy picks it up, glances at me. As the dealer is getting the 6 decks out of the ASM, but rushes over, whispers to dealer, dealer cuts off 3 decks. I leave.

    Can't play locally.

    Even on trips, the back offs are happening though not as much yet. Couple of places. Interestingly, I am not allowed to play in the very casino that is comping me a room.

    Some see it as no big deal and I wonder how they handle it. I have yet to develop the thick skin to handle it. I get upset. It depresses me. It makes me play too conservatively, make too many cover plays or balk at stuff like doubling A8 or even A7 and such.

    It's depressing that I will have to make longer trips, incur more costs (which means increasing spread and higher variance) and makes me consider weaning myself of this game.

    Wonder if others have this problem. T3 and others seem to play a count that is harder to figure out. I play HiLo.

  2. #2


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    I hope everyone notices what a real (i.e. non-trolling) post from Zee looks like.

    I find so much of this post absolutely delicious. No, Zee, it matters exactly zero what count one uses. It doesn't change anything so get that out of your head.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    T3 and others seem to play a count that is harder to figure out. I play HiLo.
    I get more from cover that is equally useful for any count. My count just allows me to assess the cost of cover better. So overall it doesn't cost as much to look stupid. Effective cover works for all counts. When the time is right to look stupid you make sure you look stupid, damn the cost. The most effective cover play is very cheap. That is always standing on 16vT. The key to effective cover is to realize the goal is to not look like a counter. Zee, you are in the blackbooks now so the goal for your cover is to make sure they don't try to get your identity or search the data bases for you. The best cover move for you to start with right now is to play unrated. Don't bet enough for them to be interested enough to waste time checking you out, and play short sessions. Locking the barn door after the horse has left will just keep him from getting back in the barn. That is useless if your goal is to keep the horse in the barn. You may have to take a break to let things cool down. Expenses will go up and EV will go down. Time to tighten up your game. It is important to carefully pick where you play. I had someone try to get me to play at a place near me because the games were so good. I told him I couldn't afford to play there. Shortly after he couldn't play anywhere in the region and had to move to LV. I guess he didn't understand what I meant.
    Last edited by Three; 11-15-2018 at 11:54 AM.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    It's depressing that I will have to make longer trips, incur more costs (which means increasing spread and higher variance) ...
    Welcome to the real world of blackjack.
    Opinions and Commentary on the Gaming Industry: The Bear Growls

  5. #5


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    This is precisly the reason I continue to suggest that counters who learn to technically count and then run out to beat the world without a integration of the skills for game selection, cover design and implementation, often lose the ability to play much earlier than could have been.

    To me, this is why the term "card counter", while technically accurate, is not the same as an "Advantage Player". An Advantage Player has a much larger scope of understanding.

    Zee has now blown himself up and I would ask how's your EV now? Maybe his players cards will help. And his question is would Three's count have helped. Wow! The answer is no, Three's count is sufficiently complex that I would suggest 90+% of current counters would have major issues attempting to adapt. For Zee to even suggest such is ludicrous.

    I, too have a local casino that I "nurture" for comp and playability reasons. Mostly because wife insist on our maintaining a social store. My game in this casino is nothing like it is elsewhere. I even have considerable craps play to assist. None of this is team play. Sooner or later cumulative win may get me here also but wife and I have a persona that is working very well here. I tell you this to sugges that different syles and protocols for different condition are necessary if you want to protect longevity.

    My only advice to Zee, is to go "on the road" and take a new game design with you.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    This is precisly the reason I continue to suggest that counters who learn to technically count and then run out to beat the world without a integration of the skills for game selection, cover design and implementation, often lose the ability to play much earlier than could have been.

    To me, this is why the term "card counter", while technically accurate, is not the same as an "Advantage Player". An Advantage Player has a much larger scope of understanding.

    Zee has now blown himself up and I would ask how's your EV now? Maybe his players cards will help. And his question is would Three's count have helped. Wow! The answer is no, Three's count is sufficiently complex that I would suggest 90+% of current counters would have major issues attempting to adapt. For Zee to even suggest such is ludicrous.

    I, too have a local casino that I "nurture" for comp and playability reasons. Mostly because wife insist on our maintaining a social store. My game in this casino is nothing like it is elsewhere. I even have considerable craps play to assist. None of this is team play. Sooner or later cumulative win may get me here also but wife and I have a persona that is working very well here. I tell you this to sugges that different syles and protocols for different condition are necessary if you want to protect longevity.

    My only advice to Zee, is to go "on the road" and take a new game design with you.
    Playing rated or not makes no difference in local casinos one visits each week plus is distinct enough. On the road/trips, I don't play rated as often and now, probably not play again.

    Trips to Lax Vegas is fine, if one backs you off, there are others around. Morover, you can play short sessions. It's driving 300+ miles to a casino or two. If backed off, long painful drive home. On the other hand, can't drive 5+ hours to play a short session. The challenge is to figure out cover, short sessions interspersed with breaks, playing DD and 6 deck games and other stuff.

    Also, if you spend $500+ to fly somewhere, how long a trip must one plan on to ensure I recover expenses and make a profit. I played in Law Vegas 8 times this year, each trip was for 3-4 days and 25 hours of play. Won 5, lost 2 and broke even once. I feel that I need to play 30+ hours a trip that costs $500+. Otherwise, increase my max (uncomfortable with that).

    Is there a trip formula? Don S has one in BJA3 but I have yet to understand it and apply to my game.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    The challenge is to figure out cover, short sessions interspersed with breaks, playing DD and 6 deck games and other stuff.
    DD games are watched a lot closer in general. If the DD game is crappy enough they might not watch it too closely. You have been playing the most sweated games rated. What did you think was going to happen. Many casinos don't blackbook you if the first BO keeps you away. It is really dumb to say don't play here and then make sure you can't play anywhere else. If it is the same no matter where you go there is no reason not to return. If you can still freely play at all the competing casinos you won't need to back or want to come back. Of course many casinos are really stupid about the just like everything else. They make their BOs less effective or totally ineffective while helping their competition at the same time. Of course if you ignore the BO there is nothing gained by not networking your information. You are coming back no matter what.
    Last edited by Three; 11-15-2018 at 03:02 PM.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    DD games are watched a lot closer in general. If the DD game is crappy enough they might not watch it too closely. You have been playing the most sweated games rated. What did you think was going to happen.
    I wonder how many times he's been told this over the years. 20? more? But no, he knows best, until he can't play his obsession any more.

    As long as he's playing MO and they can't toss him, he needs to increase his spread to compensate. Wonder how long it will take for them to deal one round and shuffle.

  9. #9


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    I find it a delicious irony. After bragging for at least 1-2 years how he can successfully play rated (including the "cover" that he's a highly paid professional who doesn't need the money), he's belatedly discovered that the pros were right about the extreme hazards of playing rated & DD. Wonder if he still consider himself a mid-level AP.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    After 4 years, it's finally become difficult or impossible to play locally. The other day, in HL room, down $400 at DD game in about 25 minutes, New dealer comes in and immediately cuts of 2/3 of DD. I pretend not to notice, at end of shoe, I move to the other DD table with 2 others. Immediately, pit lady whispers something and the deck is again cut off 2/3. I leave the HL room, wander around casino a few minutes, sit down at a $10 table. Before the dealer gives me chips, phone rings in pit, pit guy picks it up, glances at me. As the dealer is getting the 6 decks out of the ASM, but rushes over, whispers to dealer, dealer cuts off 3 decks. I leave.

    Can't play locally.

    Even on trips, the back offs are happening though not as much yet. Couple of places. Interestingly, I am not allowed to play in the very casino that is comping me a room.

    Some see it as no big deal and I wonder how they handle it. I have yet to develop the thick skin to handle it. I get upset. It depresses me. It makes me play too conservatively, make too many cover plays or balk at stuff like doubling A8 or even A7 and such.

    It's depressing that I will have to make longer trips, incur more costs (which means increasing spread and higher variance) and makes me consider weaning myself of this game.

    Wonder if others have this problem. T3 and others seem to play a count that is harder to figure out. I play HiLo.



    Once again the "full time pros" are trying to scare others away from the game.

  11. #11


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    A lot of it is BS. Playing rated or unrated makes no difference when playing in local casinos. They see you often and eventually, they figure out you are counting and need to be banned. Local casinos have started taking counter measures.

    In Las Vegas, I have been comped rooms on 8 straight trips or 24 nights plus many a comped meal. I go there over Christmas, rooms comped for 2 nights on the strip and 3 nights elsewhere.

    Playing rated is still paying off.

    After 4 years, local casinos have started counter measures. Elsewhere, I have been backed off a couple of times while playing unrated.

    Playing rated has little to do with it. It's silly to say playing rated has anything to do with it. Don't AP's playing anonymously get backed off?

    The usual idiots are making it about playing rated when all I posted was sharing my results, back offs, and that I am still trying to figure out what to expect on trips that involve 25 hours of playing (3days) and how much expense makes a trip worthwhile.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    when playing in local casinos. They see you often and eventually, they figure out you are counting and need to be banned. Local casinos have started taking counter measures.
    i would agree with that , but if they don't have your info . i meant if you took ALL the necessary measures to NOT let them know who you are it would make a difference for you down the road . In general playing unrated(any of it's variation) with all the precautions with definitely pay off in the long run . i had similar problem when i started but i don't have much choice . Either build a bankroll or not getting known .

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    A lot of it is BS. Playing rated or unrated makes no difference when playing in local casinos. They see you often and eventually, they figure out you are counting and need to be banned. Local casinos have started taking counter measures.

    In Las Vegas, I have been comped rooms on 8 straight trips or 24 nights plus many a comped meal. I go there over Christmas, rooms comped for 2 nights on the strip and 3 nights elsewhere.

    Playing rated is still paying off.

    After 4 years, local casinos have started counter measures. Elsewhere, I have been backed off a couple of times while playing unrated.

    Playing rated has little to do with it. It's silly to say playing rated has anything to do with it. Don't AP's playing anonymously get backed off?

    The usual idiots are making it about playing rated when all I posted was sharing my results, back offs, and that I am still trying to figure out what to expect on trips that involve 25 hours of playing (3days) and how much expense makes a trip worthwhile.
    Actually playing as a refusal (without a players card) will bring with it more suspicion and a quicker response from the pit/surveilance. The difference is that the damage from such a backoff is less severe due to them hopefully not knowing who you are.

    Although they will try and find out anyway they can. You learn not to try and cash your chips at least until another day/shift as often surveilance will instruct the cage to get ID

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