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Thread: Question for Stealth

  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reign Man View Post
    Red chippers don't need any cover bets, the casino will only care about you if you win thousands.
    I think my best hit on a casino in a day red chipping was around $1500. It was a long time ago so it might have been my best session. Done playing 8 deck S17, DAS, LS 1.5 decks cut off what rabbit style. I had just red the wonging chapter in Don's book, BJA3, on my reread a chapter and then go to the casino and try to implement what I read tutorial. I think my EV was real close to $20/100 to $30/100 rounds (play-all) and my top bet was 2x75 but it might have been 2x100. I really don't remember. I hit a monster shoe on my third white rabbit hop and things couldn't have gone better.

    I never would have been at the right place at the right time if it weren't for the information from Don's book that I was focusing on implementing that day. Thank's Don. I did the same with each chapter of your book. I read the whole thing through once and then re-read each chapter individually very carefully one at a time so I could focus on adding each chapter's info to AP skill set individually. Once I felt I was proficient at using the lessons taught in the chapter that I was focusing on I would reread the next chapter very slowly and carefully. Each proved very useful in upping my game and increasing my EV. I am not sure how much the white rabbit added to my EV but I was finding a lot more advantage shoes in the same amount of time so it should have been pretty significant.

    I used no cover until I was green chipping. Then I added some cover plays and increased my spread with some tricks to make my spread seem smaller than it was. As I kept increasing my bets as my BR grew I had to add more cover betting. All my back offs were lifetime win BOs for wins much higher than others reported being backed off at for lifetime wins at the same casino. So I would have to think my use of cover was quite effective and worth it once I really needed it and could afford it.
    Last edited by Three; 11-14-2018 at 07:10 AM.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    All my back offs were lifetime win BOs for wins much higher than others reported being backed off at for lifetime wins at the same casino.
    But of course, was there any doubt by anybody?

  3. #16
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    [quote=BoSox;260486]But of course, was there any doubt by anybody?[/quote
    You would expect that if you put longevity as a priority and what you are doing works. If so you would last longer than others who play with different priorities.

  4. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    But of course, was there any doubt by anybody?
    +1. Beginning to understand why some people get on this forum as often as they do.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    All my back offs were lifetime win BOs for wins much higher than others reported being backed off at for lifetime wins at the same casino.
    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    You would expect that if you put longevity as a priority and what you are doing works. If so you would last longer than others who play with different priorities.
    There is a big difference between the two above quotes. Lasting longer than others with different priorities I can understand. When it is stated in the fashion of the first quote is a far stretch in my mind. We are talking about lifetime wins much higher than others in the same exact casinos before back offs occur is one hell of a statement, to say the least. Combining that with you train the ploppies, to do what you want. Pay off dealers to accommodate your desires. Frankly, I could continue talking about your marksmanship skills, self-defense knowledge, and many other traits that I could go on and on about, but suffice it to say I think you are far from being the person you say you are.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-14-2018 at 06:51 PM.

  6. #19


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    I don't see a back off as a big deal unless it's your local shop or somewhere u are comped/staying. Otherwise usually u can be back there playing on a different day/shift as a refusal. But then again this only works if you are still relatively unknown like an out of towner.

    The strip is the best spot for that. U can just go from casino to casino playing 20 minutes at each one. Then rinse and repeat next shift. Hard to get backed off that quickly although it does happen sometimes lol.

    The rules are not always the best but it's easily made up for by a bigger spread and no cost of cover bets/plays. Plus the convenience factor is huge in terms of $ per hr.

  7. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Pay off dealers to accommodate your desires
    I never said I payoff dealers. I said I tip the ones that make me happy just like every other player. I help them figure out what makes me happy. They do what they can to generate tips from every player. There is no payoff. I just tip for service just like everyone does. If I don't like the service I don't tip. Is it my fault the dealers want tips and will try to please anyone in order to get them. That is what dealers do. You have been in a casino a lot. Haven't you figured that out yet. Helping the dealers figure out what will make you tip is just like training a dog. Give the treat when the desired behavior is given and dogs and any other smart animal can figure out how to get another treat. I have seen dealers regularly overpaying side bets for good tippers. They didn't do it for the stiffs. They don't cheat for me they just do what they are comfortable doing. It is all within the house's leeway that they give their dealers. Some dealers are just in it for themselves not for the house. They know they work for both the players and the house and try to please both at the same time. Other dealers feel like they are the house's slave and bite the hand that gives them the most food. That costs them tips and ensures I won't be playing at their table. That extra half deck or so of pen is worth tipping to get if the tip will get it.

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    I never would have been at the right place at the right time if it weren't for the information from Don's book that I was focusing on implementing that day. Thank's Don. I did the same with each chapter of your book. I read the whole thing through once and then re-read each chapter individually very carefully one at a time so I could focus on adding each chapter's info to AP skill set individually. Once I felt I was proficient at using the lessons taught in the chapter that I was focusing on I would reread the next chapter very slowly and carefully. Each proved very useful in upping my game and increasing my EV. I am not sure how much the white rabbit added to my EV but I was finding a lot more advantage shoes in the same amount of time so it should have been pretty significant.
    Sound advice that I think no one would find fault with. Although, I cannot help but wonder why someone would put so much time and effort studying about blackjack while also preaching that blackjack is one of the least advantage plays in the casino. A recent quote by you:
    "
    These one trick ponies make me laugh. They think the only EV in the casino is at a BJ table counting cards. BJ is one of the worst opportunities in the casino. "

    So I have to wonder if you were even talking about blackjack in the first above quote or Spanish 21 or something other than blackjack. Three, I am curious to know why if there are so many holes in numerous casino games that an AP may benefit from, why do you alert casinos to having flaws on an open forum? The only thing I can think of for a reason is that you MUST tell everyone how smart you are.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-15-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Sound advice that I think no one would find fault with. Although, I cannot help but wonder why someone would put so much time and effort studying about blackjack while also preaching that blackjack is one of the least advantage plays in the casino. A recent quote by you:
    "
    These one trick ponies make me laugh. They think the only EV in the casino is at a BJ table counting cards. BJ is one of the worst opportunities in the casino. "
    It is very simple. Many of the best opportunities are hard to find. You can't rely on the conditions you need being there when you hit the casino. You can do what you can to make it more likely but with fewer tables available and specific conditions needed, finding a table that has a good spot open with the right conditions is far from a gien. BJ is ubiquitous. It is always available. Most of the time you go to a casino BJ is the best available option. But when it isn't you can make a lot more money.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    So I have to wonder if you are even talking about blackjack in the first above quote or Spanish 21 or something other than blackjack. Three, I am curious to know why if there are so many holes in numerous casino games that an AP can benefit from, why do you alert casinos to having flaws on an open forum? The only thing I can think of for a reason is that you MUST tell everyone how smart you are.
    I rarely if ever give specifics the casinos can use. The fact is the casino being so tough on BJ cad counters have made a boatload switch to other forms of AP that is almost impossible for the casinos to detect or protect themselves from. The one thing casinos can do is keep APs on the only opportunity that is easy to protect against. It is the lowest edge advantage for APs and the easiest to way for the casino to be able to spot their adversary. That opportunity is BJ. So if the casinos really want to protect their bottom line they should allow more APs to have an opportunity to target BJ without much heat, and only heat up the BJ APs that are a true threat. Almost every casino game is vulnerable with the right conditions. The edge is much higher than BJ in most cases and detecting AP play is very very hard. Would you want the APs in your casino being able to reap huge profits with little hope of detecting them or would you want APs in your casino plying a small edge in a game that when doing so they are very easy to spot. I know I would make sure that as many as possible stuck with counting BJ and I would only worry about the ones that were a true threat. That is paying pennies to save hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know most casinos make the most idiotic decisions but there has to be some that are smart enough to let the counters play while weeding out the true treats. The best gaming protection guys preach this but too many casinos don't understand how to maximize their profits.

    When increasing their profits and my interests coincide I don't mind helping them. What advantage play have I exposed? None. I just help the casinos see what they are doing when they act against low level APs. I know quite a few that no longer count cards and make more money than they ever dreamed they could because they gave up counting cards. Most weren't even successful card counters. They just kept with the simple approach and burned all their bridges without making much. Many even lost money counting cards. They couldn't make it at BJ so they switched to SP21. They kept with the simple approach so they got burned even worse by variance. As hard as it is to get the boot at SP21, their play was so obvious everyone knew they were counting. When they decided the only way to win was to back count because they didn't understand why they struggled so much the casinos cut them off. Many have walked this road. The ones that didn't quit are making huge money focusing on non-counting opportunities. The casinos made it so they were the only games that they could target so they did. The ironic thing is the casinos turned easily detected losing and break even players into undetectable huge winners. Talk about casinos being stupid. All the casinos had to do was keep them counting cards and the threat would have been easily monitored and almost non-existent. If they ever became a true threat then they could act. I doubt any of the ones I am talking about would have ever made much counting cards. Like so many they learned just enough to be their own worst enemy. They figured that was enough and stopped trying to improve their game. This hurt their effectiveness and made it easy for the casinos to control and limit their success. It was the desire to do better without actually working to improve their game that was their death nell. But they got the last laugh because they are more successful than they ever thought was possible playing games the casinos don't even think are vulnerable. By pointing out BJ is the worst opportunity in the casino without giving away what the other opportunities are, the casinos should realize it is in their best interest to keep beatable BJ available and let most APs play. They should only act against the true threats.

    Offering better games and penetration while protecting them only from true threats is what the top gaming protection expert, Bill Zender, preaches. The casinos is the biggest advantage player out there. What is good for the counter is good for the casino because they are both APing BJ. More rounds per hour is a raise for both. The difference is there might be one AP in the casino benefiting from it but the casino benefits for every other player in the casino. So deeper pen gets that counter a small boost in rounds per hour but the casino gets it on every BJ table in the casino for every player at each table. That is a huge boost in revenue for the casino. Some of the smarter casinos even offer tables with no side bets so they can double the game speed for the players that don't play the side bet. Many players hate side bets and the way they slow down the game. This easily doubles rounds per hour for the casino. Most larger bettors don't play the side bets and demand better rules. Doubling profits during busy times from your biggest players is a huge revenue boost. But most casinos only care about the pennies on the dollar that counters would benefit from each extra dollar the casino would win. They give up millions to save tens of thousand of dollars, if that. If they realized all the ways their shortsightedness about counters is costing them money, the casinos would make far more profits on BJ. It is so simple and basic how could they not realize that when they know how undetectable the people they made sure couldn't count anymore are while making way more money than they ever dreamed.

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    It is very simple. Many of the best opportunities are hard to find. You can't rely on the conditions you need being there when you hit the casino. You can do what you can to make it more likely but with fewer tables available and specific conditions needed, finding a table that has a good spot open with the right conditions is far from a gien. BJ is ubiquitous. It is always available. Most of the time you go to a casino BJ is the best available option. But when it isn't you can make a lot more money.
    I rarely if ever give specifics the casinos can use. The fact is the casino being so tough on BJ cad counters have made a boatload switch to other forms of AP that is almost impossible for the casinos to detect or protect themselves from. The one thing casinos can do is keep APs on the only opportunity that is easy to protect against. It is the lowest edge advantage for APs and the easiest to way for the casino to be able to spot their adversary. That opportunity is BJ. So if the casinos really want to protect their bottom line they should allow more APs to have an opportunity to target BJ without much heat, and only heat up the BJ APs that are a true threat. Almost every casino game is vulnerable with the right conditions. The edge is much higher than BJ in most cases and detecting AP play is very very hard. Would you want the APs in your casino being able to reap huge profits with little hope of detecting them or would you want APs in your casino plying a small edge in a game that when doing so they are very easy to spot. I know I would make sure that as many as possible stuck with counting BJ and I would only worry about the ones that were a true threat. That is paying pennies to save hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know most casinos make the most idiotic decisions but there has to be some that are smart enough to let the counters play while weeding out the true treats. The best gaming protection guys preach this but too many casinos don't understand how to maximize their profits.

    When increasing their profits and my interests coincide I don't mind helping them. What advantage play have I exposed? None. I just help the casinos see what they are doing when they act against low level APs. I know quite a few that no longer count cards and make more money than they ever dreamed they could because they gave up counting cards. Most weren't even successful card counters. They just kept with the simple approach and burned all their bridges without making much. Many even lost money counting cards. They couldn't make it at BJ so they switched to SP21. They kept with the simple approach so they got burned even worse by variance. As hard as it is to get the boot at SP21, their play was so obvious everyone knew they were counting. When they decided the only way to win was to back count because they didn't understand why they struggled so much the casinos cut them off. Many have walked this road. The ones that didn't quit are making huge money focusing on non-counting opportunities. The casinos made it so they were the only games that they could target so they did. The ironic thing is the casinos turned easily detected losing and break even players into undetectable huge winners. Talk about casinos being stupid. All the casinos had to do was keep them counting cards and the threat would have been easily monitored and almost non-existent. If they ever became a true threat then they could act. I doubt any of the ones I am talking about would have ever made much counting cards. Like so many they learned just enough to be their own worst enemy. They figured that was enough and stopped trying to improve their game. This hurt their effectiveness and made it easy for the casinos to control and limit their success. It was the desire to do better without actually working to improve their game that was their death nell. But they got the last laugh because they are more successful than they ever thought was possible playing games the casinos don't even think are vulnerable. By pointing out BJ is the worst opportunity in the casino without giving away what the other opportunities are, the casinos should realize it is in their best interest to keep beatable BJ available and let most APs play. They should only act against the true threats.

    Offering better games and penetration while protecting them only from true threats is what the top gaming protection expert, Bill Zender, preaches. The casinos is the biggest advantage player out there. What is good for the counter is good for the casino because they are both APing BJ. More rounds per hour is a raise for both. The difference is there might be one AP in the casino benefiting from it but the casino benefits for every other player in the casino. So deeper pen gets that counter a small boost in rounds per hour but the casino gets it on every BJ table in the casino for every player at each table. That is a huge boost in revenue for the casino. Some of the smarter casinos even offer tables with no side bets so they can double the game speed for the players that don't play the side bet. Many players hate side bets and the way they slow down the game. This easily doubles rounds per hour for the casino. Most larger bettors don't play the side bets and demand better rules. Doubling profits during busy times from your biggest players is a huge revenue boost. But most casinos only care about the pennies on the dollar that counters would benefit from each extra dollar the casino would win. They give up millions to save tens of thousand of dollars, if that. If they realized all the ways their shortsightedness about counters is costing them money, the casinos would make far more profits on BJ. It is so simple and basic how could they not realize that when they know how undetectable the people they made sure couldn't count anymore are while making way more money than they ever dreamed.

    In a poor attempt at reverse psychology, while trying to fool the casino industry, who is, by the way, comprised of the most paranoid people on the planet you just might turn the entire industry into a Fort Knox atmosphere. I am glad you do not work on Wall Street.
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-15-2018 at 11:09 AM.

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    In a poor attempt at reverse psychology, while trying to fool the casino industry, who is, by the way, comprised of the most paranoid people on the planet you just might turn the entire industry into a Fort Knox atmosphere. I am glad you do not work on Wall Street.
    Either you are trying to repair received damage or you are pretty clueless. The best consultants the casinos pay to help with game protection tell them the same things. This is nothing new. Then they get consultants that just try to rip the casino off. Arguments can be made for changes in either direction. They see what is currently offered and tell them to change to the opposite while making the argument that supports the change they are advising in order to justify their fee. You see it all the time. At regular intervals the consultant comes through and changes everything to the opposite of what he advised last time through. If he comes in and doesn't change anything they aren't likely to pay him again. The games will periodically waffle back and forth between extremes.

    If you think I should take posts down just tell me. I almost always comply even if I don't understand why. Quoting posts just makes sure they're immortalization is out of my control. So trying to act like you think I messed things up while quoting the stuff that you say messed things up just shows you can't be serious and have other reasons for your post. You keep representing me as a crazy poser that knows nothing about playing in a casino because I post a lot or because I look at things from a different perspective than you do. That would have been a better tact to take.

  12. #25


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    Three wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by ;260521
    Most of the time you go to a casino BJ is the best available option. But when it isn't you can make a lot more money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Almost every casino game is vulnerable with the right conditions. The edge is much higher than BJ in most cases and detecting AP play is very very hard. Would you want the APs in your casino being able to reap huge profits with little hope of detecting them or would you want APs in your casino plying a small edge in a game that when doing so they are very easy to spot. I know I would make sure that as many as possible stuck with counting BJ and I would only worry about the ones that were a true threat.
    [quote=Three;260515]When increasing their profits and my interests coincide I don't mind helping them. What advantage play have I exposed? None.[/quote

    Bullshit, maybe you talk too much.



    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    The ironic thing is the casinos turned easily detected losing and break even players into undetectable huge winners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    But they got the last laugh because they are more successful than they ever thought was possible playing games the casinos don't even think are vulnerable.
    I missed one:

    "
    . It is so simple and basic how could they not realize that when they know how undetectable the people they made sure couldn't count anymore are while making way more money than they ever dreamed. "

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Talk about casinos being stupid.
    I agree with the last quote. The problem with all of the other above quotes is that some casinos big shots will think that there are indeed problems and leaks within their casino games and possibly tighten the rules and further study for flaws, while possibly finding some. No good can result from that approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Then they get consultants that just try to rip the casino off. Arguments can be made for changes in either direction. They see what is currently offered and tell them to change to the opposite while making the argument that supports the change they are advising in order to justify their fee. You see it all the time. At regular intervals the consultant comes through and changes everything to the opposite of what he advised last time through. If he comes in and doesn't change anything they aren't likely to pay him again. The games will periodically waffle back and forth between extremes.
    Exactly, and just proves to show how stupid casinos really are, so it is not out of the realm of a possibility that they could take hook line and sinker in words that people like you say when they speak things like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    By pointing out BJ is the worst opportunity in the casino without giving away what the other opportunities are, the casinos should realize it is in their best interest to keep beatable BJ available and let most APs play. They should only act against the true threats.
    Don't try to protect blackjack by causing more scrutiny, and worse rules on every other game in the casino.

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Offering better games and penetration while protecting them only from true threats is what the top gaming protection expert, Bill Zender, preaches. The casinos is the biggest advantage player out there. What is good for the counter is good for the casino because they are both APing BJ. More rounds per hour is a raise for both. The difference is there might be one AP in the casino benefiting from it but the casino benefits for every other player in the casino. So deeper pen gets that counter a small boost in rounds per hour but the casino gets it on every BJ table in the casino for every player at each table. That is a huge boost in revenue for the casino. Some of the smarter casinos even offer tables with no side bets so they can double the game speed for the players that don't play the side bet. Many players hate side bets and the way they slow down the game. This easily doubles rounds per hour for the casino. Most larger bettors don't play the side bets and demand better rules. Doubling profits during busy times from your biggest players is a huge revenue boost. But most casinos only care about the pennies on the dollar that counters would benefit from each extra dollar the casino would win. They give up millions to save tens of thousand of dollars, if that. If they realized all the ways their shortsightedness about counters is costing them money, the casinos would make far more profits on BJ.
    Now we are on the same page!
    Last edited by BoSox; 11-16-2018 at 03:04 PM.

  13. #26


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    QUOTE=Three;260524]Either you are trying to repair received damage or you are pretty clueless. The best consultants the casinos pay to help with game protection tell them the same things. This is nothing new. Then they get consultants that just try to rip the casino off. Arguments can be made for changes in either direction. They see what is currently offered and tell them to change to the opposite while making the argument that supports the change they are advising in order to justify their fee. You see it all the time. At regular intervals the consultant comes through and changes everything to the opposite of what he advised last time through. If he comes in and doesn't change anything they aren't likely to pay him again. The games will periodically waffle back and forth between extremes.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think conditions are steadily getting worse. And once a casino decides to go the 6-5 route, or the ASM route, or even worse, the CSM route, ive never seen it then magically get better. At least not while under the same management.

    The only things that i can imagine you might be referring to which can go back and forth might be penetration levels and heat?

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