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Thread: Do you scavage at the table for extra EV

  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    ...There is definitely no one size fit all guide on scavenging...
    There is...if you are hell bent on PROVING you are a pro...by all means go for it!!!...ow, don't even bother

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    There is...if you are hell bent on PROVING you are a pro...by all means go for it!!!...ow, don't even bother
    And what would that one size fit all approach be ?

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    BS table would suffice doesn’t it ? There are tables on the probabilities.
    Right, there are tables in the appendix of Professional Blackjack.
    Buying surrender and double for less are practical, thanks for the reminder!
    Failing to double on 9v5, split 9s, and all the standing/hitting are not practical to involve in my opinion. If you involve, you're hurting the ploppy's EV in some way.
    Moreover, I can't find a single example how selling my hand can be profitable if the ploppy does't overpay me.

    Is there any situation that, a ploppy wants to hit a 11v6, you pay him twice his bet, garantee him a win and takeover the hand, then you double the hand and it still worth it? The TC must be very high that double on 11v6 is >1.000 EV.

    ???? PACM00 ?? Tapatalk??

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    And what would that one size fit all approach be ?
    Ah...ABSURD for any serious pro

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by San Jose Bella View Post
    Right, there are tables in the appendix of Professional Blackjack.
    Buying surrender and double for less are practical, thanks for the reminder!
    Failing to double on 9v5, split 9s, and all the standing/hitting are not practical to involve in my opinion. If you involve, you're hurting the ploppy's EV in some way.
    Moreover, I can't find a single example how selling my hand can be profitable if the ploppy does't overpay me.

    Is there any situation that, a ploppy wants to hit a 11v6, you pay him twice his bet, garantee him a win and takeover the hand, then you double the hand and it still worth it? The TC must be very high that double on 11v6 is >1.000 EV.

    ???? PACM00 ?? Tapatalk??
    Splitting 9s can’t hurt ploppy EV whenIt’s the correct Strategy to split. So is doubling 9v5 (unless count is negative enough to not call for it, but then, why would you double on that in that case)

    Also , There’s no such thing as hurting ploppy EV if the ploppy doesn’t know about it. 21for me is selling his 16 vT!!!

    11 v 6 is a hand every ploppy knew to double. And if you pay ploppy double his bet, the maximum you can win on that hand is also double the bet.how can it be +EV ????

    Selling your losing hand is obviously profitable. You get your original bet back instead of playing a hand with -ev.



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  6. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Hand View Post
    blue_phantom,

    BS is not sufficient. For example, consider 16 vs. 10, for which the HiLo Surrender index is -2. If the HiLo TC is -5, buying the surrender is +EV. However, if the TC is +5, buying the surrender is -EV.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand
    The point being missed is that the normal EV tables no longer apply when buying a surrender. Surrender is proper when you do not expect to win 1 hand in 4. You have bought someone’s 50 bet for 25. You can now afford to win less than 1 hand in 4, anD still make money.

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    Splitting 9s can’t hurt ploppy EV when It’s the correct Strategy to split. So is doubling 9v5 (unless count is negative enough to not call for it, but then, why would you double on that in that case)
    6 decks, S17, Das game.
    9,9v6, splitting EV=.439
    9,9v6, standing EV=.281
    Single 9v6, optimal play(hitting or double) EV=.218
    If a ploppy wants to stay on 9,9v6, which is a common mistake, the only way to get yourself involved is to persuade him to split with you. You put down the wager, buy a 9 from him, break his hard 18.
    The ploppy's EV decreased by .281-.218=.063, and you bought an extremely lucrative hand with .218 EV, 21.8% return on wager!
    Most ploppies would intuitively think 18 is a better hand than 9, so they won't sell it. Only those who are really dumb would think a single 9(you can't double it!) is better than 18. I can think of another situation that someone is extremely loyal to basic strategy and he has to do it according to the book, but he doesn't have enough chips to make the split, so he asks for your help In this case, help him sincerely.

    For doubling 9v5, if the ploppy wants to hit, then you propose to double with your own wager, and you account for half the total win, the ploppy's EV is surely damaged. Imagine you received a 2 for the double, then the ploppy can't hit his 11 again! An argument is about to take place..

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    11 v 6 is a hand every ploppy knew to double. And if you pay ploppy double his bet, the maximum you can win on that hand is also double the bet.how can it be +EV ????
    6 decks, S17 game.
    11v6, double down EV=.678 for a fresh shoe.
    The EV is not over 1.000, so pay twice the price to buy the bet is not worth it.
    But when the TC becomes very high, lots of high cards in the shoe, double 11v6 is highly likely to win, then it can be >1.000 EV and thus worth twice the price of the original bet.

    So my question is, where to find the decision EV table for every TC?
    Last edited by San Jose Bella; 10-20-2018 at 05:26 PM.

  8. #34


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    10,Av6, standing EV is .902!?
    Isn't it 1.500 since it's a blackjack already?

    ???? PACM00 ?? Tapatalk??

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    The point being missed is that the normal EV tables no longer apply when buying a surrender. Surrender is proper when you do not expect to win 1 hand in 4. You have bought someone’s 50 bet for 25. You can now afford to win less than 1 hand in 4, anD still make money.
    Freightman,

    I don't see the logic of your claim. Can you give an example where "the normal EV tables no longer apply when buying a surrender."

    For example, can you show how buying the surrender is correct when the EV of the hand is, say, 0.45?

    Dog Hand

  10. #36


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Hand View Post
    Freightman,

    I don't see the logic of your claim. Can you give an example where "the normal EV tables no longer apply when buying a surrender."

    For example, can you show how buying the surrender is correct when the EV of the hand is, say, 0.45?

    Dog Hand
    Poor choice of words on my part, but the logic is pretty simple. The typical ploppy next to you, about to surrender 100 consecutive $10 hands, allows you to buy them for the surrender price. You’ve just invested $500 for $1000 of face value.

    For each hand you win, you retain $10 bet, win $10, equaling $20, less your investment of $5 per hand for a net win $15 per hand.
    For each hand you tie, you retain the $10 bet, less your investment of $5 per hand, for a net win of $5 per hand.
    For each hand you lose, your net loss is your investment of $5 per hand.

    Your break even is that combination of wins and ties sufficient to recoup your investment of $500. It’s easy enough to put a table together, but to make it simple, winning 25% of the hands, tying none, recoups your investment. They’re arguments here on both side of the fence.

    Our ploppy naturally, plays substandard, and surrenders many hands that he shouldn’t. You, of course, are an expert on index play, and your play all style will lead you to the best play, wheather pass or hit. Both of these issues will increase your edge.

    If the ploppy is ploppy solid, your edge is low. If the ploppy is ploppy lousy, your edge increases.

    Regardless, buying surrenders and insurance bets are risky heat attraction plays. I much prefer being invited to participate in doubles etc.

  11. #37


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    Quote Originally Posted by San Jose Bella View Post
    10,Av6, standing EV is .902!?
    Isn't it 1.500 since it's a blackjack already?

    ???? PACM00 ?? Tapatalk??
    Read the next-to-last paragraph of Appendix E introduction, p. 301. A-10 is for when it is not a natural.

    Don
    R

  12. #38


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    @sanjosebella
    There’s no such thing as hurting ploppy ev if the ploppy doesn’t know about it.
    Sometimes they invite you to hurt their ev.

    Ev of doubling 11 v 6 can’t be worth more than 2x when the max you can win is also 2x bet size.

    There are dispute risks to doubles indeed. Do it at your own risk and avoid the soft doubles.


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  13. #39


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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_phantom View Post
    Ev of doubling 11 v 6 can’t be worth more than 2x when the max you can win is also 2x bet size.
    There are dispute risks to doubles indeed. Do it at your own risk and avoid the soft doubles.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes, EV can't be more than 2x bet size unless in some impossible cases like 5.5/6 penetration + only 8s are left in the shoe(you keep resplitting, dealer guarantees a bust), but more than 1x bet size is enough.

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