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Thread: pros and cons of Indian casinos

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    pros and cons of Indian casinos

    I have heard that Indian casinos are regulated differently than other casinos because they can claim sovereignty within their reservation and do not have to answer to a state gaming commission. And I have heard stories about them confiscating chips from card counters, leaving the card counter with no recourse or state authority to bring justice.

    But I wonder if dealing with theft or credit risk from Indian casinos is really commonplace for card counters or if those stories were exaggerated or just really unusual situations.

    Has anyone had much experience playing high stakes or being backed off by an Indian casino? Were you treated any differently there than a regular casino?

    If there really is a significant risk of chip confiscation or refusal to cash out chips, then I suppose it would be unwise to play there. Are there other drawbacks or benefits to playing in Indian casinos?

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    Senior Member dharmaprija's Avatar
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    The main thing I have experienced in Indian casinos has occurred in the state of Oklahoma. In that state the casino is required to charge an "ante" (.50) for every hand played in BJ and on all other games. This makes a dramatic impact on the overall EV of the game. From what I have been told no self respecting AP would bother. If you PM me I can give you the rules, heat, etc for a few of the stores in the state if you are determined to attempt the worthless prospect of play in OK.
    “The essence of independence has been to think and act according to standards from within, not without.”
    Aleister Crowley

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    Quote Originally Posted by dharmaprija View Post
    The main thing I have experienced in Indian casinos has occurred in the state of Oklahoma. In that state the casino is required to charge an "ante" (.50) for every hand played in BJ and on all other games. This makes a dramatic impact on the overall EV of the game. From what I have been told no self respecting AP would bother. If you PM me I can give you the rules, heat, etc for a few of the stores in the state if you are determined to attempt the worthless prospect of play in OK.
    Are Indian casinos in OK regulated by the state to charge ante? I thought Indian casino can do whatever they want.

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    From personal experience here, the Native American Casinos are run just like any other I have visited in other states. Many have expanded to include all amenities that would entice the general public to visit from nice hotels, golf, restaurants, shows/concerts, etc. IN THE LARGER PLACES. Others are very small and can be not much different than a converted mobile home or metal building. But IF you know the casinos here, they have to compete with other businesses in other states. There are many times NO ante (or hand charge) is made................usually during slower/non-peak times like weekdays. But there are some places that never waive the per hand charge/ante. Scouting or networking is your friend.

    We have a compact like any other state as required under the Indian Gaming Act/federal law. There is NO gaming commission per se; the state relies upon the tribes to police themselves for the most part however, openly stating they rely upon the "market" to control the payback. In other words, people won't play at a place if the slots don't payback as much as at another casino. Our "commission" or agency is more involved with making sure the State's share of the revenue is paid (tax wise); not to police the playing conditions. So it is a true "capitalistic" laissez faire environment.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

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    I was on a machine play at an Indian casino and got back-roomed and consequently 86'd. Had a bunch of vouchers and they let me cash out, no problem. Other APs who've been 86'd from there have also had similar experiences.

    That's the only experience I have with being allowed or possibly not allowed to cash out at an Indian casino after getting 86'd. Other 86'ings have happened from getting a letter in the mail (and even if the 86'ing isn't 100% "legit", it'd be pointless to return because the play got busted anyway).

    I've never played on credit, but if the casino stole my chips while playing on credit, I just wouldn't pay back the marker. Yeah it sucks you'd lose your winnings, assuming there are any, but at least they wouldn't be stealing your buy-in money, too. And if they steal your chips when you're down, then you're just saving money by not paying back the marker. Not sure how the banking works with all that, but I'd think you could file a fraud claim if they try to charge you or send you a notice to pay.

    But I don't see any positives of playing at an Indian casino...but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be avoided.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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    Senior Member MJGolf's Avatar
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    RS: I know you have played many,many places but without naming the specific casino, can you at least name which State you were in and they "stole" your chips or got 86'd?
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and Men and dogs should just relax and get used to the idea" --- Robert A. Heinlein

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    A few years ago a poster on BJ21 said he got his chips confiscated at a midwest Indian casino. Since I play mostly in the midwest, I was interested in which casino this was at, so I emailed him and he told me all the details of the incident.

    Since this was a private email I can't disclose any of the details here, but I will say that I have played at the casino that this incident happened at. Now remember I'm a small stakes player and I never had any problems at this casino, but this incident really turned me off to this casino. I don't know if he ever got his chips back as I never did a follow up with him.

    However, this doesn't mean Indian casinos are not regulated at all. They are regulated by the National Indian Gaming Commission, an agency of the U.S. Government, to resolve any issues or disputes with respect to the operations of the establishments. Here is how to handle gaming disputes at Indian casinos in MI.
    https://www.michigan.gov/mgcb/0,4620...5319--,00.html
    Last edited by Midwest Player; 11-18-2018 at 08:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJGolf View Post
    RS: I know you have played many,many places but without naming the specific casino, can you at least name which State you were in and they "stole" your chips or got 86'd?
    California. In case it wasn't clear, they did NOT steal my vouchers. They let me cash them in without problem. Took me straight to the front of the line at the cage...that's some VIP status right there! lol. And yes I got 86'd. I've never had my chips, vouchers, or anything like that confiscated from me at a casino (knock on wood).



    Not related to me, but I'm sure someone can find what I'm talking about -- but I remember listening to a GWAE podcast where they had a slot director (I think?) on and he said he worked at some Indian casinos and maybe NV ones, too. Don't remember the specifics about that, but he was saying it's almost like some Indian casinos are more strict on their own policies than NV ones and that it's done to show they are above and beyond (in a good way) when it comes to self-regulation due to the stigma that Indian casinos are unregulated or self-regulated. This isn't to say ALL Indian casinos are like this (they certainly are NOT), but it's an interesting counter-point at least for some Indian places. Unfortunately, I have no idea on how to find that podcast and I'm not going to search through hundreds of them to find the right one. Hopefully someone here remembers that one and can post it up or at least say who the guest was and I can find it from there (hopefully).
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by beta View Post
    If there really is a significant risk of chip confiscation or refusal to cash out chips, then I suppose it would be unwise to play there. Are there other drawbacks or benefits to playing in Indian casinos?
    A little late to the party, but this is something I know about personally. I play in Native Casinos a lot.

    Benefits: different rules. This is not always good, but in my location the Indian casinos offer much better rules than the state regulated casinos.

    Benefits: different AP opportunities.

    Benefits: some of the smaller casinos are pretty loose if they like you.

    Drawbacks: shady promotions. I don't even bother participating in any month long drawing, regardless of entries.

    Drawbacks: rules change without notice

    Drawbacks: generally speaking, lower maximums.

    I built my initial bankroll playing games with excellent rules, normally only available at the black chip level. It didn't matter that the table max was $200; my personal max at that time was $60.

    Drawbacks: you irritate one casino, you've burned them all in the area.

    I've heard just as many stories about ugly backrooms in Indian as non-Indian casinos, the only difference is that you have a recourse if you're in a non-Indian casino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    A little late to the party, but this is something I know about personally. I play in Native Casinos a lot.

    Benefits: different rules. This is not always good, but in my location the Indian casinos offer much better rules than the state regulated casinos.

    Benefits: different AP opportunities.

    Benefits: some of the smaller casinos are pretty loose if they like you.

    Drawbacks: shady promotions. I don't even bother participating in any month long drawing, regardless of entries.

    Drawbacks: rules change without notice

    Drawbacks: generally speaking, lower maximums.

    I built my initial bankroll playing games with excellent rules, normally only available at the black chip level. It didn't matter that the table max was $200; my personal max at that time was $60.

    Drawbacks: you irritate one casino, you've burned them all in the area.

    I've heard just as many stories about ugly backrooms in Indian as non-Indian casinos, the only difference is that you have a recourse if you're in a non-Indian casino.

    I made by original roll at First Nations stores. I would add the following:

    Pro - Cheap Gas, Tobacco
    Con - Tobacco Smoke

    Pro - Little Heat, Floor is too busy looking for dealer mistakes
    Con - Slow dealers, less hands per hour, dealer errors

    When these stores first opened in Wa. in the early 90's, they were extremely beatable. You had to watch carefully for dealer errors, but you could play for hours with no heat. So many casinos were opening with little or no experienced staff. Since the tribes wanted employment for their members, very few experienced managers were brought in, and it was a free for all for years. In 1991, the Lummi tribe opened a casino. The Tulalip Tribe opened a casino in 1992, the Nooksack Tribe opened one in 1993, and the Swinomish, Colville, and Spokane Tribes opened theirs in 1994. Six more tribes opened casinos in 1995: Jamestown S’Klallam, Muckleshoot, Chehalis, Squaxin Island, Upper Skagit, Suquamish, and an extension of the Lummi Tribe casino. Man...do i miss those days. The First Nations stores in Wa. are still better than BC, but they have 25 years of experience now so you have to use more cover.

  11. #11


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    z
    z

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmaprija View Post
    "required to charge an "ante" (.50) for every hand played in BJ"
    Most places charge 25 cents, and most will charge no ante
    on slow days and some that I have played at, charge no ante
    whatsoever to players who present a player's card.

    THE most interesting point to make is this:
    The casinos must return BJ profits to the players;
    and generally do so by holding monthly free-roll tourneys.
    The catch is that they will let you play as long as you toke
    the dealers (many of them who are 18 - 20 years old).
    Otherwise - the tribe elders have a reduced SKIM to chop up.
    z
    z

  12. #12


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    z
    z

    There have been episodes of Native American operated casinos, though not in OK,
    confiscating chips of players. I recall an incident in rural Mississippi.
    Perhaps, the worst episode happened not long ago, when the woman who was
    Phil Ivey's partner, was relieved of $1,000,000 in Front Money at Foxwoods Casino in CT.
    Episodes of outright cheating were, for a few years, rife in the California Indian casinos.

    Also, I will add that some Indian casinos are particularly nasty when they 86' a cards counter.
    z
    z

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinnyBJplayer View Post
    The casinos must return BJ profits to the players;
    So why do they sweat APs?

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