Can a Case be Made for Playing Rated

[Midwest Player]

Okay, we heard it from the pros many times. Players like "bigplayer", "Ryemo", "Wisereyes" have recommended don't risk your good name by playing rated. I have no dispute with anything they say. I do believe their arguments are valid, but do remember they are also playing for high stakes.

Now my focus will be on the recreational red chip player or light green player. Should they play rated? I say it depends. But first let me say at most casinos that I intend to return to I have played rated my entire life. At my local casinos, I'm so well known that it wouldn't make any difference if I'm rated or not. After a backoff, I could never return. There is no waiting period long enough for them to forget me. I'm known by name from the Chairman of the tribe down to the janitor and most folks in between. So in this situation why not play rated.

I do believe age should be an important factor in deciding if to play rated. If you are 25 years old and have maybe 50 years of playing ahead of you, it is much different than someone who is 65 and only has a few years of playing left. At 25 someday you maybe in a situation where you might want to play at higher stakes at the pro or semi-pro level. At 65 your intentions should already be well known.

Now I believe 21forme said at the red chip level your comps are so small they are practically worthless. To this I say bullshit. At the red chip level without comps it is almost impossible to play a winning game after expenses. Your expenses will eat any profit you can possibly make. On a recent blackjack trip I received about $250 in comps consisting of hotel, meals, and free play. Even with all these comps I had about another $70 in uncomped expenses.

My trips to Laughlin and Wendover would not be profitable without getting free flights and hotel. And yes, you can qualify for this at the red chip level or light green level with maybe some video poker thrown in the mix.

Of course, there are risks involved with playing rated. Probably getting your name put in OSN is a pretty bad risk, but it is not the end of the world if this does happen. Thanks to a member on this forum who has access to such information, I have been told I'm not in OSN.

I just don't like the idea that playing rated is a no, no, and should never be considered. I don't like to see all the ridicule that Zee gets when he suggests this. A case can be made for playing rated especially at low stakes.

Okay, let the ploppy name calling begin.

[Three]

Now my focus will be on the recreational red chip player or light green player. Should they play rated?

If you think you might ever play for meaningful stakes then you shouldn't play rated. If they want your identity they will get it whether you play rated or not. As a red chipper they really don't care if you play but they will note on your account that you are an advantage player. Once you start playing for meaningful stakes they will drop the axe because they already know you are counting. If you red chip unrated they probably won't try to figure out who you are so you anonymity is relatively secure allowing you a clean slate when you play for meaningful stakes. When they want to figure out wh you are it won't be hard but at least you aren't or haven't told them who you are.

[Three]

Now I believe 21forme said at the red chip level you comps are so small they are practically worthless. To this I say bullshit. At the red chip level without comps it is almost impossible to play a winning game after expenses. Your expenses will eat any profit you can possibly make. On a recent blackjack trip I received about $250 in comps consisting of hotel, meals, and free play. Even with all these comps I had about another $70 in uncomped expenses.

You can earn good comps APing other games and play BJ unrated. Most places the comps for BJ are almost nothing. If you have a place that gives generous comps playing rated could make sense.

I just don't like the idea that playing rated is a no, no, and should never be considered.

I went the playing rated route and it worked out pretty good for me. Most places I got lifetime win backs from at higher win amounts than most people. Sometimes double the win amounts. But now I can't play as much as I would like. I am making about the same playing less but I wonder if I would have been better off playing unrated. I am still not in any blackbooks the last time I checked. I don't go back after a back though. I believe a casino is stupid to blackbook you on your first BO. If the BO works they want you to find places to play so you have no reason to sneak back. If they flyer you or blackbook you, it is like a BO at every casino and sneaking back is the same thing as going somewhere else to play so of course you will be likely to be playing there again. I have always avoided playing places that are quick to blackbook players. Once I am in a blackbook I will not worry about that because what difference will it make to worry about it. If I am already in a blackbook what difference does it make if I get another entry under my name and face. It makes a minute difference but not enough to make you avoid playing at places that quickly blackbook players.

So far this has worked well. I guess some casino staff are not as dumb as we think they are.

[RS]

Everyone's in a different situation. That being said, I'd say as a general rule of thumb, you should not play rated. There may be a few people who "should" play rated while the vast majority shouldn't.

If you're new to the game, you shouldn't play rated at all, since you don't know if you're going to enjoy it and want a future in it, or if risking big money isn't your thing and you'd rather just play recreationally every now and then. Once you've figured it out a bit more, see how far you want to take it. Do you just plan on spreading $5-50 or something for the rest of your retirement? Are you young and have an interest in taking it more seriously down the road, playing for higher stakes, likely playing other games too? What is your reason for playing -- is it to have fun, enjoy your time in a casino, while playing a small winning game? Or do you think there's a real future there for you?

[Bubbles]

There is a time and place to play rated. I play rated in some places. Many places I am glad I didn't play rated. Ian Anderson has some good books on rated play.

When playing lower stakes, it's good to play rated in one casino in each area to get free rooms and food. While there hit the surrounding casinos hard unrated. Some places don't comp well, or are too sweaty, so sometimes it's easier to pay for a normal hotel in certain areas.

When playing higher stakes, it's often cheaper to pay for a hotel room than to play politely for a room. The hourly EV lost by twiddling my thumbs for a free room compared to hitting them hard is often more than a room.

I've never felt the need to play rated for cover. Most heat is in your head. There are a few places it might be valid cover, but in general I don't think it matters.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[ZeeBabar]

I am reluctant to post on this because it can turn the thread to me rather than the OP.

I play rated and unrated at the same places when only playing a few sessions every 2+ months. I also play $25 DD games and $10/$15 6 deck games. So now, I could visit Las Vegas, stay at a Trop property on comps, play one short rated, play anonymously at other Trop properties. Now, while staying at the Trop, I go to a station or MLife, I use my points to get comped meals and then go to play anonymously. Sometimes, I start anonymously, if losing and See that the session is going to be a losing one, I might somehow pull out a card Or spread about 10 cards and ask if their property uses one of these, that I don't want another card and book myself a loss.

Yes, I am in OSN but they don't seem to check and I am not there long enough. Moreover, as T3 and my detractors say, they see me as unskilled (but maybe my occasional deliberate mistakes convince them I am unskilled). After all, what dumb AP ends a session when it's TC+5 or drops to minimum when TC has gone up, or doubles for less? Sure, I might lose an opportunity or two but the free rooms and comps while still in OSN makes it up for me. I mean, what is 5 free nights in Las Vegas, a few free buffets worth?

[21forme]

Now I believe 21forme said at the red chip level you comps are so small they are practically worthless. To this I say bullshit.

If you're playing at the red chip level, traveeling to play is a luxury you can't afford, if you're in it for the money.

If you simply like playing BJ, sure, why not?

If you're trying to earn money, whether to make a living or simply supplement your retirement, play locally until you can safely play at the green chip level.

[Three]

Yes, I am in OSN but they don't seem to check and I am not there long enough. Moreover, as T3 and my detractors say, they see me as unskilled (but maybe my occasional deliberate mistakes convince them I am unskilled).

Hopeless. This has been explained to him many times by multiple experts but he still doesn't get what is actually going on. I will not explain it again. Newbies just realize this advice shows a total lack of understanding as to what is happening and why.

[Stealth]

Another topic that has been beaten to death. It is my experience that by the time blackjack AP's have enough experience to make an informed decision about playing rated, they have already f#$ked it up. I know because I did.

Z, thinks he is giving helpful advice when his experience is so limited to not be relevant to most AP's. Not to also overlook that much of this topic is persona and performance related and we have no idea how successful or unsuccessful his might be. His observation of OSN is at best, naive and, at worst, harmful. Saying it has no impact on him is like saying we have no undetected security breaches. Duh...! I can assure you that the over 1000 people in OSN have had some type of retribution one or more times against them for advantage play. Advising that it is "meaningless" is just plain stupid.

Using casino rewards systems can be valid for additional EV as well as cover. Conversely, we should all understand that casinos seek to identify advantage players for the purposes of banning them from playing. Using their rewards systems just makes that objective easier to accomplish.

Given the wide range of outcomes and objectives with the decision, it is important to plan how you are going to deal with the aspect "prior" to long term play.

I live in Las Vegas and have been backed off or tresspassed from many properties and ID'd by facial recognition when simply walking in the casino. I understand the issue of +EV from rewards. We have "harvested" considerablle monies from various stores generous free play and other offers. All of these were carefully scripted and executed.

In contrast, I identify a "home" casino that I cultivate by playing rated and by playing multiple games (craps, BJ). The reward from this is well over $3,000 a month. Again, this was not happenstance, this casino was intentionally cultivated. My blackjack play, while positive EV, includes moderate to heavy cover, depending on who is watching. I am on a first name basis with all pit bosses, floor supervisors and my host. Even with this, I am concerned about the cumulative win, as they will not let me continue to harvest these benefits long term. Characteristics that contribute to my ability to do this are my age, the fact that my wife plays red chip blackjack (she counts but uses chardonnay adjusted indexes on complex decisions and has problem betting at green or higher) and she is highly engaging with the staff. Again, all this is planned and intentional.

I do this for a combination of +EV reasons and social/entertainment reasons, besides my wife threatens me not to get "kicked out" of this casino.

Elsewhere and in more true AP play, I advise against playing rated unless you have a specific game/system you can take advantage of.

The message you should get from this post, is that your decision to use and the execution of rewards systems is a integral part of the advantage play, treat it as such.

[berightback]

I agree with Stealth 1000%. It is your decision to play rated or unrated. If you play rated it will eventually come back and bite you in the butt. Casino's use your players card mainly to track your win/loss. If you have one winning year playing BJ its unusual, if you have two winning years you are flagged and watched and eventually tossed. Red chip, green chip it does not matter! Your info is shared with all neighboring casino's and your info is only a phone call away from an out of state casino's, too.

[Three]

I live in Las Vegas and have been backed off or tresspassed from many properties and ID'd by facial recognition when simply walking in the casino. I understand the issue of +EV from rewards. We have "harvested" considerablle monies from various stores generous free play and other offers. All of these were carefully scripted and executed.

A point that I know Stealth is well aware of that should be added is some casinos comp suck so bad you should never consider making them this type of casino. You want to pick a casino whose comp system is really good for working this angle. BJ comps suck in general. Working a comp system involves other games, especially machine play. Machine play generally gets you the most comps. There is a method to play that will generate great comps. Before doing this you should learn what that is. Usually they go by average daily theoretical loss so more visits with less play will really hurt you. But every comp system is different.

[ZeeBabar]

For T3, Stealth and all newbies. I am not giving advice and not suggesting anything. I am just reporting how I play. It works for me because I consider it a successful trip if I recover my basic expenses and have a generally good time. I don't attempt to maximize EV. I am a recreational counter averaging about $12-$15k a year, Playing about 250-300 hours a year. If you don't enjoy short trips, casinos and want to earn more money playing less, listen to the pros. Though, some like T3, don't play rated, don't play your system and don't prefer playing BJ, will give you great advice while sharing little about their own system or trip reports.

[Three]

Though, some like T3, don't play rated, don't play your system and don't prefer playing BJ, will give you great advice while sharing little about their own system or trip reports.

You should really reframe from talking about what you have no idea about. I said earlier in the thread that I do play rated because I made that mistake early on and can't put the genie back inside the bottle now at those casinos. You don't know what system I use for blackjack and you don't know what system other people use. And I have told you I have to play mostly BJ because that is usually what is available at a casino. There are many better plays out there but they require particular conditions that are not found most of the time. BJ is sweaty as hell and has the slimmest of advantages but is always available. So you took three swings in the quote and didn't catch any wood with any of them. Three strikes, you're out.

Trip reports are how casinos ID you. You have been warned about this and because you ignore the warnings you find yourself in the OSN and only able to play crappy games with reduced conditions just for you. If I did do trip reports people would not believe most of them. I work hard to gather more information and use it differently and to give up very small amounts of EV on more volatile situations to insure I win consistently and don't get as much heat. As a result I win more consistently and don't lose nearly as much. I also win more moderately but the certainty of BR growth thanks me constantly for it. For some reason everyone gets pissed when you talk about giving up a little in long term stats to keep that dog named variance on a shot leash so I no longer post about it. Like you my goals are modest. I want to spend one or two days a week playing modest hours each day and averaging $1K to $2K a week while spreading it out between a lot of casinos. I have found that pretty easy to do when you eliminate the big losing days for relatively small winning days. It may sound like I am doing just what you are doing but what I do is very calculated to produce the specific results they produce. The result is smaller buy-ins, fewer extreme results and more wins with fewer losses. Each of these individually make you look a lot less threatening and together really do so.